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Study: 'Medicare for all' projected to cost $32.6 TRILLION, yes TRILLION.
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2018 Jul 30, 7:51am 21,828 views 70 comments
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1
Tenpoundbass
2018 Jul 30, 8:03am
Tenpoundbass
2018 Jul 30, 8:03am
That's not projected that's just an estimate what a loony fantasy would cost the Working Conservatives in the US.
A Projection would mean we take those cunts seriously.
A Projection would mean we take those cunts seriously.
2
Tenpoundbass
2018 Jul 30, 8:03am
Tenpoundbass
2018 Jul 30, 8:03am
That's not projected that's just an estimate what a loony fantasy would cost the Working Conservatives in the US.
A Projection would mean we take those cunts seriously.
A Projection would mean we take those cunts seriously.
3
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 9:34am
This is such a dumb argument. The only thing that matters is whether total health care cost would be higher or lower under single payer. Why would anyone care if they pay it by way of company deductions, copays, deductibles, or taxes?
4
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 9:46am
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 9:46am
LeonDurham says
I can see a Bernie supporter saying that, since most pay zero taxes now and already are sucking on the tit of the taxpayers with the FREE Medicaid they get..
MrMagic says
For those of us that pay a lot of federal income tax now, doubling the amount I pay for federal taxes would far exceed what I pay for my medical expenses.
This is such a dumb argument. The only thing that matters is whether total health care cost would be higher or lower under single payer. Why would anyone care if they pay it by way of company deductions, copays, deductibles, or taxes?
I can see a Bernie supporter saying that, since most pay zero taxes now and already are sucking on the tit of the taxpayers with the FREE Medicaid they get..
MrMagic says
the study estimated that doubling all federal individual and corporate income taxes would not fully cover the additional costs.
For those of us that pay a lot of federal income tax now, doubling the amount I pay for federal taxes would far exceed what I pay for my medical expenses.
5
Shaman
2018 Jul 30, 9:47am
Shaman
2018 Jul 30, 9:47am
It would cost this much if all the other rules for medicine and care and availability of care stay in place. The socialist countries who provide universal healthcare do so by rationing care appropriately. Rationing is absolutely KEY, as anything provided FREE will be radically abused. The English provided the first term to accurately describe this phenomenon: “The Tragedy of the Commons.”
6
zzyzzx
2018 Jul 30, 9:52am
zzyzzx
2018 Jul 30, 9:52am
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2018/democrats_like_socialism_but_say_no_to_becoming_a_socialist_party
Democrats are less likely to know what socialism is compared to other voters but have a much more favorable opinion of it.
Democrats are less likely to know what socialism is compared to other voters but have a much more favorable opinion of it.
7
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 9:55am
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 9:55am
Quigley says
So, Sarah Palin was right all along about Government run healthcare and Death Panels:
[G]overnment health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
Would that mean that Bernie goes first, being that he's 76?
Rationing is absolutely KEY, as anything provided FREE will be radically abused.
So, Sarah Palin was right all along about Government run healthcare and Death Panels:
[G]overnment health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
Would that mean that Bernie goes first, being that he's 76?
8
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 9:57am
MrMagic says
Nope--Sarah was wrong, of course. If you're looking to Palin for wisdom and education, then you're in deep trouble.
So, Sarah Palin was right all along about Government run healthcare and Death Panels:
Nope--Sarah was wrong, of course. If you're looking to Palin for wisdom and education, then you're in deep trouble.
9
socal2
2018 Jul 30, 10:30am
This hefty price tag already assumes that the Government will be able to negotiate cheaper drug prices and doctor visits. Most lefties today are disputing the numbers claiming that it is a biased Koch Bros report - but these numbers fall well in line with other liberal studies.
For perspective:
- The entire Federal Budget is $4 trillion
- Combined net worth of all US billionaires is $2.7 trillion - so if you confiscate all their wealth and property, we couldn't pay for one year of this.
- If we double all Federal individual and corporate income taxes - still couldn't cover this price tag
For perspective:
- The entire Federal Budget is $4 trillion
- Combined net worth of all US billionaires is $2.7 trillion - so if you confiscate all their wealth and property, we couldn't pay for one year of this.
- If we double all Federal individual and corporate income taxes - still couldn't cover this price tag
10
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 10:34am
Just for reference, the US currently spends $3.8T on healthcare so this represents a $0.6T savings over current spending.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/02/02/annual-u-s-healthcare-spending-hits-3-8-trillion/#ab0198576a9c
Sorry--don't mean to inject some perspective into the discussion.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/02/02/annual-u-s-healthcare-spending-hits-3-8-trillion/#ab0198576a9c
Sorry--don't mean to inject some perspective into the discussion.
11
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 10:38am
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 10:38am
LeonDurham says
From 2014??
Really?
Isn't this 2018?
Ya really think that giving everyone FREE healthcare will come in below that number, when millions have high deductible plans now?
Sorry--don't mean to inject some perspective into the discussion.
From 2014??
Really?
Isn't this 2018?
Ya really think that giving everyone FREE healthcare will come in below that number, when millions have high deductible plans now?
12
socal2
2018 Jul 30, 10:42am
LeonDurham says
Every entitlement program the government runs is nearly bankrupt. There is more fraud in Medicare than total insurance profits each year. Those .8 trillion in savings assumes the rosiest of scenarios that the government will be able to negotiate doctors and drug fees without any negative consequences..........like lots of doctors dropping out and only accepting cash in private business.
What "perspective" do you have that would allow you to trust the Government to run something bigger and more complex than the government programs they are running now into the ground?
I always say - "Once the Government can fix Medicare and the VA, only then can we begin discussions about the Government taking on more of our healthcare responsibilities".
Just for reference, the US currently spends $3.8T on healthcare so this represents a $0.6T savings over current spending.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/02/02/annual-u-s-healthcare-spending-hits-3-8-trillion/#ab0198576a9c
Sorry--don't mean to inject some perspective into the discussion.
Every entitlement program the government runs is nearly bankrupt. There is more fraud in Medicare than total insurance profits each year. Those .8 trillion in savings assumes the rosiest of scenarios that the government will be able to negotiate doctors and drug fees without any negative consequences..........like lots of doctors dropping out and only accepting cash in private business.
What "perspective" do you have that would allow you to trust the Government to run something bigger and more complex than the government programs they are running now into the ground?
I always say - "Once the Government can fix Medicare and the VA, only then can we begin discussions about the Government taking on more of our healthcare responsibilities".
13
Shaman
2018 Jul 30, 10:54am
Shaman
2018 Jul 30, 10:54am
LeonDurham says
She was wrong because (instead of rationing care) the bill attempted to pay for ALL of the redundant, useless, and unnecessary care people signed up to get! As a result, costs went through the roof and the whole thing became completely unaffordable. Now we have the entire cost of the excesses foisted on state governments to try to pay for. And the removal of the mandate means that people can choose the plan they want again, or maybe no plan if they’re healthy, which will drive insurance losses even higher, necessitating higher premiums which already are too high to pay for.
It’s really too bad. I was looking forward to being on a death panel!
Nope--Sarah was wrong, of course
She was wrong because (instead of rationing care) the bill attempted to pay for ALL of the redundant, useless, and unnecessary care people signed up to get! As a result, costs went through the roof and the whole thing became completely unaffordable. Now we have the entire cost of the excesses foisted on state governments to try to pay for. And the removal of the mandate means that people can choose the plan they want again, or maybe no plan if they’re healthy, which will drive insurance losses even higher, necessitating higher premiums which already are too high to pay for.
It’s really too bad. I was looking forward to being on a death panel!
14
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 10:55am
MrMagic says
lol--you think our healthcare spend has gone DOWN over the last few years?? If anything, the $3.8T number is probably way too low.
From 2014??
Really?
Isn't this 2018?
Ya really think that giving everyone FREE healthcare will come in below that number, when millions have high deductible plans now?
lol--you think our healthcare spend has gone DOWN over the last few years?? If anything, the $3.8T number is probably way too low.
15
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 10:57am
socal2 says
Every other government in the world has found a way to do it. Do you think Americans are dumber than citizens in every other 1st world county?
What "perspective" do you have that would allow you to trust the Government to run something bigger and more complex than the government programs they are running now into the ground?
Every other government in the world has found a way to do it. Do you think Americans are dumber than citizens in every other 1st world county?
16
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 10:57am
socal2 says
Those are basically the two most expensive groups in the US to provide health care. Let's compare apples to apples.
I always say - "Once the Government can fix Medicare and the VA, only then can we begin discussions about the Government taking on more of our healthcare responsibilities".
Those are basically the two most expensive groups in the US to provide health care. Let's compare apples to apples.
17
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 11:08am
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 11:08am
MrMagic says
This is someone that doesn't understand the basics: the government is a bigger cartel than the doctors. Today doctors set the price as they see fit. In a single payer system, the government sets a reasonable price as they see fit.
The government already pays as much per capita on healthcare as other industrialized countries that do offer "medicare for all" equivalents.
i.e. All the government has to do is just go ahead, offer medicare for all. Don't spend more.
If the doctors don't like it, they can kiss the big furry gov ass, and go work in Cuba or something.
Sen. Bernie Sanders' "Medicare for all" plan would increase government health care spending by $32.6 trillion over 10 years, according to a study by a university-based libertarian policy center.
That's trillion with a "T."
This is someone that doesn't understand the basics: the government is a bigger cartel than the doctors. Today doctors set the price as they see fit. In a single payer system, the government sets a reasonable price as they see fit.
The government already pays as much per capita on healthcare as other industrialized countries that do offer "medicare for all" equivalents.
i.e. All the government has to do is just go ahead, offer medicare for all. Don't spend more.
If the doctors don't like it, they can kiss the big furry gov ass, and go work in Cuba or something.
18
socal2
2018 Jul 30, 11:09am
LeonDurham says
When Europe can cover it's defense commitments without the US for 10 years, than we can compare their systems with ours.
LeonDurham says
They are also tiny populations and have politicians on both side of the aisle showering these programs with money. Medicare and the VA should be the gold standard programs showing how well the government can run things, yet the VA is a total shit show and we should be ashamed how we are treating our veterans.
Every other government in the world has found a way to do it. Do you think Americans are dumber than citizens in every other 1st world county?
When Europe can cover it's defense commitments without the US for 10 years, than we can compare their systems with ours.
LeonDurham says
Those are basically the two most expensive groups in the US to provide health care. Let's compare apples to apples.
They are also tiny populations and have politicians on both side of the aisle showering these programs with money. Medicare and the VA should be the gold standard programs showing how well the government can run things, yet the VA is a total shit show and we should be ashamed how we are treating our veterans.
19
socal2
2018 Jul 30, 11:12am
Heraclitusstudent says
Funny - I was thinking the same thing. If an American living in one of the most prosperous and rich countries on earth doesn't have the wherewithal to take care of their own healthcare needs with all of the existing insurance and welfare programs - they can move to Cuba or something.
If the doctors don't like it, they can kiss the big furry gov ass, and go work in Cuba or something.
Funny - I was thinking the same thing. If an American living in one of the most prosperous and rich countries on earth doesn't have the wherewithal to take care of their own healthcare needs with all of the existing insurance and welfare programs - they can move to Cuba or something.
20
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 11:23am
socal2 says
What does defense budget have to do with anything? We're talking about healthcare spend/person in Europe vs. the US.
When Europe can cover it's defense commitments without the US for 10 years, than we can compare their systems with ours.
What does defense budget have to do with anything? We're talking about healthcare spend/person in Europe vs. the US.
21
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 11:23am
socal2 says
Great--let's keep wasting trillions of dollars/year.
Funny - I was thinking the same thing. If an American living in one of the most prosperous and rich countries on earth doesn't have the wherewithal to take care of their own healthcare needs with all of the existing insurance and welfare programs - they can move to Cuba or something.
Great--let's keep wasting trillions of dollars/year.
22
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 11:28am
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 11:28am
socal2 says
No they don't have to do that.
They just show up at emergencies, and you pay for it.
If an American living in one of the most prosperous and rich countries on earth doesn't have the wherewithal to take care of their own healthcare needs with all of the existing insurance and welfare programs - they can move to Cuba or something.
No they don't have to do that.
They just show up at emergencies, and you pay for it.
23
socal2
2018 Jul 30, 11:35am
LeonDurham says
US healthcare is the most regulated industry in the country - and we wonder why it costs so much to the average consumer. I don't think the answer is to regulate it even more with a total government take over. Again, the government should be made to fix Medicare and the VA before we even entertain the Liberal's fantasy of taking over the entire healthcare industry. Simply put, the US Government and its Progressive/Liberal fanboys have not earned the right or trust yet.
IRT - comparing America to European countries, it is like comparing tiny White-bread Vermont to massively large and economically/ethnically diverse California with our massive illegal immigrant and poverty problem. Of course it is going to cost more per person in California (and America) than ethnically and economically homogeneous countries that don't have the same poverty and resultant health issues of a less educated population that we have in many parts of America.
Finally - at the very least, the Single Payer advocates need to start showing their math and get specific on how we would have to massively restructure our taxes and society to get Single Payer in the US. The numbers are absolutely staggering. Simply pointing to tiny European countries and saying "they did it" is not a persuasive argument IMO.
Great--let's keep wasting trillions of dollars/year.
US healthcare is the most regulated industry in the country - and we wonder why it costs so much to the average consumer. I don't think the answer is to regulate it even more with a total government take over. Again, the government should be made to fix Medicare and the VA before we even entertain the Liberal's fantasy of taking over the entire healthcare industry. Simply put, the US Government and its Progressive/Liberal fanboys have not earned the right or trust yet.
IRT - comparing America to European countries, it is like comparing tiny White-bread Vermont to massively large and economically/ethnically diverse California with our massive illegal immigrant and poverty problem. Of course it is going to cost more per person in California (and America) than ethnically and economically homogeneous countries that don't have the same poverty and resultant health issues of a less educated population that we have in many parts of America.
Finally - at the very least, the Single Payer advocates need to start showing their math and get specific on how we would have to massively restructure our taxes and society to get Single Payer in the US. The numbers are absolutely staggering. Simply pointing to tiny European countries and saying "they did it" is not a persuasive argument IMO.
24
bob2356
2018 Jul 30, 11:42am
MrMagic says
Fucking amazing. The government already covers 50% o health care at 1.7 trillion out of 3.4 trillion to cover the uninsured, poor and elderly. The most intensive and expensive health care users that is almost half of the population. So picking up the healthiest part of the population is going to cost 2.5-3 trillion a year which is double what it costs to cover the sickest part of the population. Great math.
Medicare for all is a bad idea because it doesn't eliminate the problems of fee for service, profits adding to the cost of every single thing in health care, the huge cost of managing billing (roughly 25% of every dollar at a hospital or doctors office), etc., etc.. Until the money stops going down those ratholes it doesn't matter who pays for it.
"It's showing that if you are going to go in this direction, it's going to cost the federal government $2.5 trillion to $3 trillion a year in terms of spending,"
Fucking amazing. The government already covers 50% o health care at 1.7 trillion out of 3.4 trillion to cover the uninsured, poor and elderly. The most intensive and expensive health care users that is almost half of the population. So picking up the healthiest part of the population is going to cost 2.5-3 trillion a year which is double what it costs to cover the sickest part of the population. Great math.
Medicare for all is a bad idea because it doesn't eliminate the problems of fee for service, profits adding to the cost of every single thing in health care, the huge cost of managing billing (roughly 25% of every dollar at a hospital or doctors office), etc., etc.. Until the money stops going down those ratholes it doesn't matter who pays for it.
25
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 11:42am
socal2 says
Who's we? The reasons are well documented.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-does-healthcare-cost-so-much
and we wonder why it costs so much to the average consumer
Who's we? The reasons are well documented.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-does-healthcare-cost-so-much
26
Onvacation
2018 Jul 30, 12:04pm
Onvacation
2018 Jul 30, 12:04pm
LeonDurham says
From the article:
"high prices are the main reason for high health care spending in the United States."
Makes sense to me. Now how can we lower the prices?
Who's we? The reasons are well documented.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-does-healthcare-cost-so-much
From the article:
"high prices are the main reason for high health care spending in the United States."
Makes sense to me. Now how can we lower the prices?
28
bob2356
2018 Jul 30, 12:24pm
socal2 says
So that's why health care costs $10,190 per capita in VT and $7549 per capita in CA. That's 2015, the latest available. Because CA is massively large and economically/ethnically diverse with massive illegal immigration and poverty problem. Thanks for clearing that up.
All those TINY countries with a lower poverty rate than the US at 13%. You mean like these.
Belgium 15.1
Denmark 13.4
France 14 64 million population
Germany 16.7 82 mllion
Greece 36
Hungary 14.9
Italy 29.9 62 million
Poland 17.6 39 million
Portugal 19
Spain 21.1 47 million
Sweden 15
or Australia (45 million) at 14% and NZ at 15%
Eastern Europe is worse, much worse.
Health issues like a much higher smoking and drinking rates in Europe? No one ever needed health care from smoking or drinking problems. Ok maybe just a little tiny bit.
IRT - comparing America to European countries, it is like comparing tiny White-bread Vermont to massively large and economically/ethnically diverse California with our massive illegal immigrant and poverty problem. Of course it is going to cost more per person in California (and America) than ethnically and economically homogeneous countries that don't have the same poverty and resultant health issues of a less educated population that we have in many parts of America.
So that's why health care costs $10,190 per capita in VT and $7549 per capita in CA. That's 2015, the latest available. Because CA is massively large and economically/ethnically diverse with massive illegal immigration and poverty problem. Thanks for clearing that up.
All those TINY countries with a lower poverty rate than the US at 13%. You mean like these.
Belgium 15.1
Denmark 13.4
France 14 64 million population
Germany 16.7 82 mllion
Greece 36
Hungary 14.9
Italy 29.9 62 million
Poland 17.6 39 million
Portugal 19
Spain 21.1 47 million
Sweden 15
or Australia (45 million) at 14% and NZ at 15%
Eastern Europe is worse, much worse.
Health issues like a much higher smoking and drinking rates in Europe? No one ever needed health care from smoking or drinking problems. Ok maybe just a little tiny bit.
29
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 12:36pm
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 12:36pm
bob2356 says
"Medicare for all" provides a huge tool to limit costs: single payer sets the price.
I'll say it again: the government is a bigger cartel than the healthcare industry.
Medicare for all is a bad idea because it doesn't eliminate the problems of fee for service, profits adding to the cost of every single thing in health care, the huge cost of managing billing (roughly 25% of every dollar at a hospital or doctors office), etc., etc.. Until the money stops going down those ratholes it doesn't matter who pays for it.
"Medicare for all" provides a huge tool to limit costs: single payer sets the price.
I'll say it again: the government is a bigger cartel than the healthcare industry.
30
LeonDurham
2018 Jul 30, 12:38pm
Onvacation says
Easy--more bargaining power. Get rid of middleman markups. Eliminate unnecessary testing.
From the article:
"high prices are the main reason for high health care spending in the United States."
Makes sense to me. Now how can we lower the prices?
Easy--more bargaining power. Get rid of middleman markups. Eliminate unnecessary testing.
31
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 12:40pm
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jul 30, 12:40pm
socal2 says
The argument that the US healthcare industry costs twice as much as other countries because it is heavily regulated doesn't make any sense.
It is more expensive because there is no competition*. No competition => no capitalism. End of story.
(*): No one shops around in an ambulance.
Most people do the procedures their doctors tell them to do.
Most people are willing to overpay because it's their lives on the line, they can't afford to not be covered.
US healthcare is the most regulated industry in the country - and we wonder why it costs so much to the average consumer. I don't think the answer is to regulate it even more with a total government take over.
The argument that the US healthcare industry costs twice as much as other countries because it is heavily regulated doesn't make any sense.
It is more expensive because there is no competition*. No competition => no capitalism. End of story.
(*): No one shops around in an ambulance.
Most people do the procedures their doctors tell them to do.
Most people are willing to overpay because it's their lives on the line, they can't afford to not be covered.
32
bob2356
2018 Jul 30, 12:42pm
LeonDurham says
A good interview but it actually it doesn't document what health care money is being spent on. The information is really not available. Its all scattered in different studies about different aspects of health care spending or simply isn't available. Things like amount private health insurers spend on administration and managing billing or the overall profit in the health care system just isn't available.
Who's we? The reasons are well documented.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-does-healthcare-cost-so-much
A good interview but it actually it doesn't document what health care money is being spent on. The information is really not available. Its all scattered in different studies about different aspects of health care spending or simply isn't available. Things like amount private health insurers spend on administration and managing billing or the overall profit in the health care system just isn't available.
33
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 12:52pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 12:52pm
Heraclitusstudent says
Exactly... but it doesn't stop Bernie from going out there and make himself look like a total ass, does it?
This is someone that doesn't understand the basics
Exactly... but it doesn't stop Bernie from going out there and make himself look like a total ass, does it?
34
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 12:56pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 12:56pm
LeonDurham says
Wow, finally waking up to Bernie's total delusions?
When you add in the 30 million uninsured, give FREE healthcare to all the people on Bronze plans, give FREE healthcare to everyone else who has other high deductible, high copay plans or limited doctors in network plans, the price will probably double that.
Ever watch people eat at a FREE buffet line?
If anything, the $3.8T number is probably way too low.
Wow, finally waking up to Bernie's total delusions?
When you add in the 30 million uninsured, give FREE healthcare to all the people on Bronze plans, give FREE healthcare to everyone else who has other high deductible, high copay plans or limited doctors in network plans, the price will probably double that.
Ever watch people eat at a FREE buffet line?
35
bob2356
2018 Jul 30, 12:58pm
Heraclitusstudent says
No it doesn't mean that. Medicare is so so at best not all that efficient or cost effective. It doesn't do anything about the inherent conflict of interest of fee for service where the more you do the more you get paid, It doesn't do anything about bringing down the huge cost and labor of billing. It isn't very good at fraud.
A system with capitation for primary and employed specialists would be much better. No billing costs at all, no incentive for over treatment. This is called the Beveridge model wihich is used in Great Britain, Spain, most of Scandinavia, New Zealand. and Hong Kong. Very similar to the VA actually. Which despite the incessant whining of the slavish devotees to the free market works well. Not perfectly, but well.
"Medicare for all" provides a huge tool to limit costs: single payer sets the price.
I'll say it again: the government is a bigger cartel than the healthcare industry.
No it doesn't mean that. Medicare is so so at best not all that efficient or cost effective. It doesn't do anything about the inherent conflict of interest of fee for service where the more you do the more you get paid, It doesn't do anything about bringing down the huge cost and labor of billing. It isn't very good at fraud.
A system with capitation for primary and employed specialists would be much better. No billing costs at all, no incentive for over treatment. This is called the Beveridge model wihich is used in Great Britain, Spain, most of Scandinavia, New Zealand. and Hong Kong. Very similar to the VA actually. Which despite the incessant whining of the slavish devotees to the free market works well. Not perfectly, but well.
36
HeadSet
2018 Jul 30, 12:59pm
HeadSet
2018 Jul 30, 12:59pm
LeonDurham says
There is going to be "Death Panels" regardless of system. For example, more hearts needed than hearts available for transplant. Some sort of decision making body will do the triage. Those turned down for transplant will die. You can call this deciding body "Life Panel" if it makes you feel better, but that panel still decides who will die from lack of treatment.
MrMagic says
So, Sarah Palin was right all along about Government run healthcare and Death Panels:
Nope--Sarah was wrong, of course. If you're looking to Palin for wisdom and education, then you're in deep trouble.
There is going to be "Death Panels" regardless of system. For example, more hearts needed than hearts available for transplant. Some sort of decision making body will do the triage. Those turned down for transplant will die. You can call this deciding body "Life Panel" if it makes you feel better, but that panel still decides who will die from lack of treatment.
37
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:02pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:02pm
LeonDurham says
Like Canada, is this a better model?
Every other government in the world has found a way to do it. Do you think Americans are dumber than citizens in every other 1st world county?
Like Canada, is this a better model?
38
bob2356
2018 Jul 30, 1:04pm
MrMagic says
After all people all over the world that have FREE health care wake up every morning and rush down to their doctors because it's FREE Could i have a FREE colonoscopy twice today? ,please please. How about another FREE hemorrhoid surgery then?
Ever watch people eat at a FREE buffet line?
After all people all over the world that have FREE health care wake up every morning and rush down to their doctors because it's FREE Could i have a FREE colonoscopy twice today? ,please please. How about another FREE hemorrhoid surgery then?
39
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:08pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:08pm
Heraclitusstudent says
I see you don't know much about how Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance companies bill, do you.
All insurance companies have "allowables" for all the major treatment they cover. Do you really think a doctor can submit a bill for a basic exam for a million dollars and get paid that amount from the insurance company?
Today doctors set the price as they see fit. In a single payer system, the government sets a reasonable price as they see fit.
I see you don't know much about how Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance companies bill, do you.
All insurance companies have "allowables" for all the major treatment they cover. Do you really think a doctor can submit a bill for a basic exam for a million dollars and get paid that amount from the insurance company?
40
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:13pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 30, 1:13pm
Speaking of that great Socialist, single payer system Canada has, that the Democrats think we should copy......
63,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment last year.
A new report from the Fraser Institute estimates that more than 63,000 Canadians travelled abroad for medical care in 2016.
The think-tank says that's a nearly 40-per-cent increase over the previous year, and may be related to long wait times for medical procedures in Canada.
The institute asked the specialists to approximate the percentage of their patients who received non-emergency treatment outside of Canada in the previous 12 months. Based on that data, the institute estimates that 63,459 Canadians left the country for non-urgent medical care in 2016.
"If that many Canadians are willing to pay out of pocket to get faster access to the treatment they need, that means they are dissatisfied with the quality of care," said Yanick Labrie, a senior Fraser Institute fellow and one of the authors of the report.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000-canadians-left-the-country-for-medical-treatment-last-year-fraser-institute-1.3486635
63,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment last year.
A new report from the Fraser Institute estimates that more than 63,000 Canadians travelled abroad for medical care in 2016.
The think-tank says that's a nearly 40-per-cent increase over the previous year, and may be related to long wait times for medical procedures in Canada.
The institute asked the specialists to approximate the percentage of their patients who received non-emergency treatment outside of Canada in the previous 12 months. Based on that data, the institute estimates that 63,459 Canadians left the country for non-urgent medical care in 2016.
"If that many Canadians are willing to pay out of pocket to get faster access to the treatment they need, that means they are dissatisfied with the quality of care," said Yanick Labrie, a senior Fraser Institute fellow and one of the authors of the report.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000-canadians-left-the-country-for-medical-treatment-last-year-fraser-institute-1.3486635
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That's trillion with a "T."
The latest plan from the Vermont independent would require historic tax increases as government replaces what employers and consumers now pay for health care, according to the analysis being released Monday by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University in Virginia.
Sanders' plan builds on Medicare, the popular insurance program for seniors. All U.S. residents would be covered with no copays and deductibles for medical services.
"Enacting something like 'Medicare for all' would be a transformative change in the size of the federal government," said Charles Blahous, the study's author.
Sanders' office has not done a cost analysis, a spokesman said. (Ahhhh, typical politician, promise something without having ANY clue of the costs)
Kenneth Thorpe, a health policy professor at Emory University in Atlanta, authored one of those studies and says the Mercatus analysis reinforces them.
"It's showing that if you are going to go in this direction, it's going to cost the federal government $2.5 trillion to $3 trillion a year in terms of spending," said Thorpe. "Even though people don't pay premiums, the tax increases are going to be enormous. There are going to be a lot of people who'll pay more in taxes than they save on premiums."
After taking into account current government health care financing, the study estimated that doubling all federal individual and corporate income taxes would not fully cover the additional costs. (Crap, there goes the narrative that you can just tax the "rich" to pay for it.......)
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/study-medicare-bill-estimated-326-trillion-56906940