patrick.net

marcus says

But my point, why can't we hear from more intelligent people that actually have the background and skills to look at this in a productive problems solving way.

because the moment they say something that doesn't fit the narrative, they get shouted down....if they say that Trump made a good choice they get attacked.....

logic says

Heyyou should be allowed to continue with the insults as long as they are equally given to each side.

yeah because they started it, said the second grader to his mom..

logic says

komputodo says

Like you with your constant insults re: "Turns out he has a much more complex, nuanced and balanced view that any right wing Trump Cuck is going to be able to relate to.. you should try it yourself.

Should only 1 side stop with the insults or should it be both? Maybe you should call out your team when they use this divisive tactic.

Heyyou should be allowed to continue with the insults as long as they are equally given to each side.

When your side starts with lies and deceit, f bombs will fly in return.

Your side is the liars that have this in their bible

"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."

Really you all hate Trump because this commandment isn’t working on him

"Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

komputodo says

marcus says

But my point, why can't we hear from more intelligent people that actually have the background and skills to look at this in a productive problems solving way.

because the moment they say something that doesn't fit the narrative, they get shouted down....if they say that Trump made a good choice they get attacked.....

Truer words were never spoken.

Any questioning of the narrative gets shouted down. Freedom of speech is reserved for those who agree with the ruling class.

logic says

Unfortunately this just is not true. I see alot of divisiveness coming from Trump supporters without it being instigated from the other side. When you see it why not call them out on it like here

You ain't seen nothing yet.

"You magnificent Bastard! I read your book, Rommel (actually Guderian)" - Patton.

We're going maximum Alinsky on your asses, and we're just getting started.

NoCoupForYou says

logic says

Unfortunately this just is not true. I see alot of divisiveness coming from Trump supporters without it being instigated from the other side. When you see it why not call them out on it like here

You ain't seen nothing yet.

"You magnificent Bastard! I read your book, Rommel (actually Guderian)" - Patton.

We're going maximum Alinsky on your asses, and we're just getting started.

This is it. I’m aware of turn the other cheek. But despite my beliefs now, I spent a good 17 years of my adult life engaging in every hedonistic act you can think of. Well maybe that’s an exaggeration. Every act of gluttony is more like it. I ate, drank, gambled, and fucked like there was no tommorow. I’m a sinner and always will be. I’ve also rubbed nuts with various mafias, with the worst elements of life over and over again. I know enough to sit and let a liar blow out his entire bag of wind before going in for the kill. The poker table is an awesome place. No place for an all American kid I guess, but I made it my place anyway for years.

I can see a lying deceitful media and what they do. Don’t get me wrong, the Republicans are not nearly as virtuous as they’d like you to think. But that doesn’t matter right now because the guy at the top is looking out for the little guy. He’s seen and experienced everything I have. He has much less concern for his public image than I do. But I know how he thinks and I know why. The media are snakes in the grass. The Democrat leadership is worse. Only one way to deal with them. Get down in the mud and take the offensive too them. You stomp a mudhole in their necks, you use the same dirty tactics they do, and you don’t let up until the life is squeezed out of them.

The more they bleat out what a terrible person you are, the closer you shove that middle finger into their face, ramming it down the bleating deceivers throats if need be.

:
WE have a totally broken system. I'm just as sure that the democrats are the lessor evil as you are that it's the republicans.

But the truth is the system is just broken. TOTALLY BROKEN. TOTALLY FUCKED. AND WE ARE BEING PLAYED !

Lets take the singe issue of immigration. During the Obama admin, congress wasn't going to address it. But it was closer to being addressed in all it's complexity than it has since. Anyone who is honest will admit that during the OBama years there were huge increases in southern border security and in deportations of mexicans that committed crimes in the US. Yes there was aslo DACA, and more tolerance for refugees than now.

Instead of getting problem solving teams together to look at some kind of balanced approach, what do we have ?

Trump campaigns on the wall, which many democrats fight only because it's stupid and a waste of money, not becasue they are opposed to border security.
What "the wall" issue effectively did is it helps Trump's base to see this as a simple binary issue. Even otherwise intelligent people on this forum will claim. that it's this simple:

"Democrats are for open borders or no borders even

Republicans are for border security. "

Do you see what they do ? It's all lies. Stupid bullshit and treating us like we are chidren with an average IQ of 80.

I'm quite sure that you aren't even going to scratch the surface of the point I'm trying to make, and the problem that I'm identifying.

Trump campaigns on the wall, which many democrats fight only because it's stupid and a waste of money, not becasue they are opposed to border security.
What "the wall" issue effectively did is it helps Trump's base to see this as a simple binary issue. Even otherwise intelligent people on this forum will claim. that it's this simple:

"Democrats are for open borders or no borders even

Republicans are for border security. "

Huge straw man here. Democrats opposing the wall is just one aspect, and not all about "wasting money." Democrats also show they are for open borders with sanctuary cities, drivers licenses for illegals, being anti-ICE, in-state tuition, and now Newsom giving illegals money.

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HeadSet says

Democrats also show they are for open borders with sanctuary cities, drivers licenses for illegals, being anti-ICE, in-state tuition, and now Newsom giving illegals money.

See what you do ? Can't tell if it's a lack of logic or just outright lying to yourself.

Locally helping to prevent people who have been here for 30 years with adult children that are citizens even, from being deported (based on federal law) has literally zero to do with open borders.

You can possibly make the argument (even while border security is there and strong and was greatly beefed in the Obama era) that sanctuary cities are a temptation to illegal immigration, but what you can not do without totally lying, is deny that sanctuary cities are entirely about preventing people that are already here (and in some cases have put down roots) from being deported.

marcus says

:
HeadSet says

Democrats also show they are for open borders with sanctuary cities, drivers licenses for illegals, being anti-ICE, in-state tuition, and now Newsom giving illegals money.

See what you do ? Can't tell if it's a lack of logic or just outright lying to yourself.

Locally helping to prevent people who have been here for 30 years with adult children that are citizens even, from being deported (based on federal law) has literally zero to do with open borders.

You can possibly make the argument (even while border security is there and strong and was greatly beefed in the Obama era) that sanctuary cities are a temptation to illegal immigration, but what you can not do without totally lying, is deny that sanctuary cities are entirely about preventing people that are already here (and in some cases have put down roots) from being deported.

But it has everything to do with how the Dems are playing their cards. They take a hard line, fuckem I take one harder. They use the press as their propaganda machine, I decry the lying deceitful press from the mountaintops. There is no compromise to be made. It’s all hardline negotiation until one is left standing.

No mercy, no quarter.

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FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

But it has everything to do with how the Dems are playing their cards

Yeah, they do sometimes play in to the stupid characterization of their positions.

For example, I think if they try to strongly promote that they are just as pro border security (even though this is understood in DC) they fear that it doesn't benefit them politically.

The other thing that's rarely discussed about immigration is that if there is some sort of "look the other way" mindset coming from the corporate world, it isn't based on the nonsensical idea that they save money on cheap workers. That's an absurdly stupid lie. It's that we have an economic system based on growth, and growth at this point is largely a function of population growth.

Actually there’s no need for population growth due to the cv downturn.

However I will concede that you are correct pre cv.

What you are not correct on is that a guest worker program would have easily solved the matter. Combine that with an end to welfare, disability, housing etc and there would be zero issue with labor shortage. Of course the Dems can’t agree to all that cause they lose too many voters. So they won’t be reasonable and can’t be reasonable. Hence my position.

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

What you are not correct on is that a guest worker program would have easily solved the matter.

I didn't say that. I'm just speculating on why corporate America tolerates it. It's certainly not becasue of cheap employees. Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties. I guess at many he could say they are just licensing his name and it isn't his policies. Still, you aren't going to hear him condemning this practice at properties with his name.

How many illegal immigrants are there ? I really don't know. Many are catholic and want to have more than 2 children. Are you really going to claim that this doesn't partly offset white Americas low reproduction rates ?

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Actually there’s no need for population growth due to the cv downturn.

Really ? Are we going forward going to change the definition of economic health ?

Are we going to continue to advocate growth of govt debt without claiming we can grow our way out of it ?

If Covid-19 has any upside, it’s a total vindication of the GOP/Trump platform:
1)strong borders, controlling immigration is not only good economically, it’s essential for curbing the spread of this disease.
2)Fair trade agreements are essential. If we let China take over all our production, especially of critical supplies, we risk being stuck when they decide to stop trading those critical supplies and being at their mercy. This is intolerable and even the Democrats have to admit that this is true.
3)SJW issues are not only silly but they distract from real problems we have. Americans are so over that BS.

what you can not do without totally lying, is deny that sanctuary cities are entirely about preventing people that are already here (and in some cases have put down roots) from being deported.

In my opinion, you are not being fully candid here. Sanctuary cities are not entirely about preventing only long ago arrivals from being deported, they are about protecting any recent and future arrivals as well. They even advertise this welcoming to new arrivals posture.

Are you really going to claim that this doesn't partly offset white Americas low reproduction rates ?

We do not need population growth. In fact, if we want to maintain our 1st World life style, we better keep the population at a level sustainable by renewable resources.

Really ? Are we going forward going to change the definition of economic health ? Are we going to continue to advocate growth of govt debt without claiming we can grow our way out of it ?

We need to grow the ECONOMY, not the POPULATION. Advances in productivity and technology are the key. If growing population were the key, places like Nigeria would be zooming to the top.

Tim Aurora says

Because Republican are now a party of dumb and dumber

Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.

Landlords and low-value added food processing businesses need abundant cheap labor; a declining population is a nightmare for them.

More place at cheaper price (or same place at flat or even declining rent) and Better wages for same job.

What's interesting in the Netherlands is that Wilder's biggest supporters are Middle Aged Turks, sick of being elbowed aside by young Poles for the Handyman jobs.

Expensive Labor + Cheap Rents = Plenty of cash to circulate in the economy, creating even more opportunity.

HeadSet says

We do not need population growth. In fact, if we want to maintain our 1st World life style, we better keep the population at a level sustainable by renewable resources.

You can deny it all you want, and I'm not saying it's good, but we live under a model that says economic growth is good. We call the opposite of economic growth recession or depression.

HeadSet says

If growing population were the key, places like Nigeria would be zooming to the top.

Sorry but that's not logic. I said that economic growth is America is dependent on population growth. I didn't say that population growth anywhere was all that's needed for economic growth, or that population growth is the only engine of economic growth.

This is one of the reasons why I teach Math. It's to help students be better with this kind of logic. You know, if this then that , versus, this if and only if that kind of stuff. It's important and woefully lacking in our society.

NoCoupForYou says

Expensive Labor + Cheap Rents = Plenty of cash to circulate in the economy, creating even more opportunity.

Please elaborate on how such a place exists.

Seriously please. You might be fixin to teach me something.

marcus says

Please elaborate on how such a place exists.

Seriously please. You might be fixin to teach me something.

Europe after the Black Death, fired the Renaissance. Peasants and Apprentices got really saucy about wages, and the authorities didn't have the manpower to put them down by force. It also brought endemic feudal violence way down since so many Noble Houses were wiped out and many local lords exterminated or consolidated.
The Colonial Era USA to the late 19th Century. Cheap Land and High Wages. The whole reason slavery and indentured servitude existed.
Cape Colony under the Dutch.
USA, Australia, Europe 1950-1975. And to a lesser extent, until the late 90s.
Europe would be like this right now if it didn't import millions of rapefugees.

Of course the reason for the rapefugees and high immigration is not just to keep low end job wages down, but keep rentals full. Without the tens of millions of illegals in the past 20, living in and around NYC and other large cities would be substantially cheaper. Less Demand - Same Supply = Cheaper Prices

You couldn't rent an old 2BD/1BA in North Jersey for $700/month while making $12/hour without a college degree. I did so in the mid 90s - stocking service vans for Sears brands.

If low wages and high rents were the secret to wealth, late 19th Century/early 20th Century London and New York would have been paradises for the working classes.

I’m certain Los Angeles rents would drop drastically if the estimated one million illegals living in LA County were deported.

And before anyone yaps that they live where no one else wants to, which is always the (stupid) counter argument, there was massive demand for ANY low end rental prior to the shutdown.

Tim Aurora says

And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

That bit wasn’t the problem, but rather a solution to making the USA a better place to do business and to take profits. We got more taxes from that deal not less.

Tim Aurora says

And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

Yes, and 40-50% of people that just got stimulus checks didn't pay a fucking dime in federal taxes. Ain't that cute...

logic says

Well except for the Federal taxes they pay... Federal tax on gas, payroll taxes if still employed, Federal tax on cell phone bill... should I go on?

Federal income taxes. Sorry I wasn't clearer... The taxes you list are maybe $500/yr. Payroll taxes are built into the income, and the employer pays it, so that one is a moot point. If you're self employed then yes, you pay SS, etc.

Check it out. Most people don't pay any federal income taxes. This isn't bullshit. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16

100% of those 44% will likely get $1,200 per person and $500/child if they have them. That's called free money in my world if you don't pay federal income taxes. My family paid $40k for 2019, but hey, we're rich...

I have a neighbor with 8 fucking kids. They will get $4k for them and another $2,400. You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money. That's almost $8k for those of us that pay taxes. This is why socialism can't and will never work. I'm fucking pissed I have a neighbor getting $6,400 for what?? Not using a condom? While I pay $40 fucking K in federal income taxes?

If you disagree with what I'm saying here, you're a fucking retard. Harsh, but special circumstances call for it. Sick of people bullshitting stuff they don't understand.

I have a neighbor with 8 fucking kids. They will get $4k for them and another $2,400. You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money.

Add to that the neighbor will get that money even if not laid off from work, are retired collecting pensions, or currently on public assistance anyway.

Tim Aurora says

And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

NoCoupForYou says

Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.

Republicans brought corporate taxation to a level consistent with the OECD average. Ours was among the highest in the world, fueling yet more offshoring of US firms.

marcus says

:
Anyone who is honest will admit that during the OBama years there were huge increases in southern border security and in deportations of mexicans that committed crimes in the US. Yes there was aslo DACA, and more tolerance for refugees than now.
.

Obama changed the definition of "deportation" to include turnarounds at the border, a metric which had never been used before. His numbers were artificial. "Deporter-in-Chief" was a myth.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

"But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.

Expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen steadily since his first year in office, and are down more than 40% since 2009.

On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency’s deportation statistics.

The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.

NoCoupForYou says

USA, Australia, Europe 1950-1975. And to a lesser extent, until the late 90s.

I was asking where such places are now.

Consider US tax rates in the 50s through 70s. I'm not saying it's simple cause and effect, but things were better for working class, especially housing costs versus labor rates, when higher increments of income were taxed much higher. But then women weren't working then in nearly the same numbers.

For the first several decades that way more women were working, even though it meant lower income for men, relative to rents, and costs of living in general, 2 incomes relative to rents were better, perhaps even now two incomes relative to rents are better than one income to rents in 1960.

Tim Aurora says

So you cannot have both ways.

goofus says

And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

NoCoupForYou says

Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.

Republicans brought corporate taxation to a level consistent with the OECD average. Ours was among the highest in the world, fueling yet more offshoring of US firms.

What's wrong with coming into line with the OECD (including most European countries) average? What do you mean "both ways"? Neither party should actively seek to undercut business, nor should they be beholden to it.

logic says

$6,400 =$6,400. It's not almost $8k if anything it's almost $7k but more exactly $6.4k

What are you talking about?? You don't understand the point. If you get a gross paycheck of $1k, it's usually something like $850 (FICA and rough deductions) minus any pension/401k items net pay. If I give you $1k cash with no taxes paid, that would be like earning $1,200 through your employer. Do you comprehend? The government gave this family $6,400 TAX FREE. It costs more than $6,400 because they don't pay federal taxes.... That's the point and I thought that was obvious.

logic says

I disagree on what you say how does that make me a retard?

At no point did I call you personally a retard. But my above correction of your misunderstanding... well.

logic says

An employer pays half and an employee pays the other half out of their earnings

So what you're staying is that an employer doesn't account for the cash they have to pay out for both sides for payroll taxes when hiring someone as a full time employee? I get payroll taxes having run a business for the better part of a decade. Taxes HAVE to be paid regardless of how you want to slice the pie.

Employers bake it into pay/salary. Plain and simple. I've yet to meet a successful business person that has NOT brought up this part of running a business and what to pay employees. Would you hire someone and not think about the mandatory 12.4% you HAVE to pay each payroll period???? There's also the fact that the employer literally/physicaly pays that 12.4%. It's baked in. The employee pays dick without the employer and their revenue... I thought this was common sense.

That's the point and I thought that was obvious.

It was obvious to those who actually pay taxes, and especially if they do their own taxes.

I thought this was common sense.

It was common sense, especially to those who have to make or manage a payroll.

So, headset, were is the error in my logic?

WookieMan said: You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money. That's almost $8k for those of us that pay taxes.

You replied with: $6,400 =$6,400. It's not almost $8k if anything it's almost $7k but more exactly $6.4k

Wookieman clearly is talking about after tax money. A person who pays taxes would have to earn almost $8,000 to net the same after tax income that the person who got $6.4k tax free. This is very obvious, but you responded as if WookieMan did an overzealous round up of $6.4k to $8k.

HeadSet says

This is very obvious, but you responded as if WookieMan did an overzealous round up of $6.4k to $8k.

I'm also not claiming my math is 100%. It could be closer to $7,500 depending on your tax rate. It doesn't matter. The family I'm referencing doesn't pay federal income taxes at all. That's the point.

Let's say I were to receive the $1,200 stimulus as an individual somehow. If I'm paying federal taxes, cool. No harm there. If I'm not though, that tax free money has to be paid by someone and it's not that person or family I'm referencing. We're talking $6,400 that would be roughly $8k from an employer during normal times. To show it differently the payment is equivalent to $76,800/yr if paid each month. You'd have to get a job that pays roughly $96k to NET that amount. Where would that $20k come from? Other peoples money, earnings, businesses.

I'm admittedly maybe not laying this out the best way. Basically if you get free money and don't pay federal taxes, where the free money came from, that's kind of bull shit as someone that paid $40k in just federal taxes alone in 2019. I'm not saying it's bad, it likely was needed, I just don't want to hear people bitch about government not doing anything for them. Government wipes the ass of millions upon millions of lazy fucks in this country. A couple getting $2,400 out of nowhere, whether they have a job or not, is a fucking historic event. It's not to be taken lightly.

:

Moreover, why, in your calculations, are you leaving out the Federal income tax that would have to be paid on $6,400?

Because WookieMan specifically said the $6,400 payment was TAX FREE. He also specifically said those "that actually do pay taxes" when talking about the $8k, unlike the family he was referencing.

marcus says

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

What you are not correct on is that a guest worker program would have easily solved the matter.

I didn't say that. I'm just speculating on why corporate America tolerates it. It's certainly not becasue of cheap employees. Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties. I guess at many he could say they are just licensing his name and it isn't his policies. Still, you aren't going to hear him condemning this practice at properties with his name.

How many illegal immigrants are there ? I really don't know. Many are catholic and want to have more than 2 children. Are you really going to claim that this doesn't p...

They work in every fucking industry. All goods, all factory, all production. Yes teachers are still all legal so you don’t see it. Iny life I see illegals work everywhere because they are cheap and hence profitable for businesses everywhere. And if they could toss you out and replace you with Jose they would.

marcus says

Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties

Do you have any examples of Trump hiring illegal aliens or is that just the TDS talkin'?

marcus says

It's important and woefully lacking in our society.

Yep. Problem solving skills (math and logic) are the second most important thing successful people need to learn.

marcus says

:

All professions listed are members of the Clerisy: a class of workers who are directly employed by the wealthy elites and owe total allegiance to their masters. If they weren’t faithfully promoting propaganda and only truths which are convenient to their employers, they wouldn’t be employed.
This is such a naked truth that only a math teacher could fail to see it.