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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   52,106 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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380   HeadSet   2024 Feb 19, 8:09am  

Reality says


In the absence of ICE car demand for gasoline (and diesel), there wouldn't have been the petrochemical industry that has produced the plastic insulators (tubes/wire-wraps/coatings) for electric lines. Electricity distribution into households would have continued using the Knob-and-Tube method,

We are talking an "alternative history" here, a thought exercise like "what would it be like if Hitler did not invade the USSR." However, I do not think it is correct to assume that without ICE cars we would have no progress in other areas including chemistry. If, for example, the country trended to electric vehicles instead of gas we would have seen more improvements in batteries, electrical distribution, and electric drive trains. Petroleum would still be around as heating oil and lubricants, so plenty of opportunity to develop plastics and related products. If we had gone the EV route, then today's EV would be more advanced than a Tesla, just like real world ICE cars are a far cry from a Model T.
381   WookieMan   2024 Feb 19, 9:30am  

We can't even do 10% EV's currently. We're at 3% max. Your light in your home would not turn on if we got to 10% at current grid capabilities in most areas. CA grid is toast if EV's double in the next year or two. It's already shit anyway.

Your toy will become useless. it's fact.
382   socal2   2024 Feb 19, 11:51am  

WookieMan says

We can't even do 10% EV's currently. We're at 3% max. Your light in your home would not turn on if we got to 10% at current grid capabilities in most areas. CA grid is toast if EV's double in the next year or two. It's already shit anyway.


Over 25% of all new cars sold in California last year were electric.

California has one of the shittiest and least reliable grids in the US, so if California can cope - so will most everyone else.

Not saying that we don't have to improve our energy grid - but it is not an insurmountable task.
383   WookieMan   2024 Feb 19, 1:24pm  

socal2 says

Over 25% of all new cars sold in California last year were electric.

California has one of the shittiest and least reliable grids in the US, so if California can cope - so will most everyone else.

Not saying that we don't have to improve our energy grid - but it is not an insurmountable task.

Not disputing the sales. It's fine 90% of the time. You get a hot summer and you guys are fucked even if you have the free super charger. Your car won't work. Eman might do fine with solar I suppose but you cats are still reliant on the grid no matter what. You have cars that are fucked if there's no sunshine or grid. Not really a discussion.

I'm intested to see what happens when this 25% of cars cannot move? Or your roads get shittier than they already are with no MFT. There's a lot, a ton that EV driver have zero clue about the industry. It's kind of comical and kind of scary at the same time. Enjoy the next 18 months. Your toy is gonna cost $5k/yr more. Between grid updates, MFT and overpaying for a sedan, you'll have lost $20-30k and not saved a dime.
384   WookieMan   2024 Feb 19, 1:33pm  

A bit "technical" but proves my point. https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2090&context=lclr

They're gonna come after you guys. Hybrids as well, which is the ultimate future. You'll pay even more for what you overpaid for a vehicle when you have to repair your suspension because of shitty roads. Winning, I guess?
385   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 2:56pm  

If anyone, who doesn’t have solar, but is worried about power outages, consider installing a power generator.

My biz partner installed a power generator for his house, which is capable of generating equivalent to his electricity grid. It’s tied to the PG&E gas supply line. If there’s a power outage, it will kick on. Instead of paying for electricity, you pay for gas during that duration. He paid $10k to have it installed.

He has a single story Eichler house, and his neighbors have tall trees. Solar was not a viable option while he drives an X. Just food for thought.
386   socal2   2024 Feb 19, 3:00pm  

WookieMan says

You get a hot summer and you guys are fucked even if you have the free super charger. Your car won't work.


If we have no electricity, how are the gas pumps at gas stations going to work? The pumps won't work, nor would the payment systems. Most power outages don't last for more than a day or so. Anything longer, and EVERYTHING will have issues, not just EV's.

Also, it takes 4 kWH of electricity just to refine 1 gallon of gas. That is the equivalent of my Model Y driving 15 miles just on the electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gas. That doesn't even factor in the costs and energy needed to transport the refined gasoline to the gas station.

Think of all the electricity we could save and less wear and tear on our roads if we don't need to refine and haul billions of gallons of gas all over the country.
387   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 3:37pm  

It’s only February. Let’s go Tesla. 🚀🚀


388   GNL   2024 Feb 19, 3:50pm  

Did it win any awards for being fugly?
389   socal2   2024 Feb 19, 4:13pm  

Looking at getting one of the new 3's for the wife and handing her Hyundai Santa Fe down to one of my kids.

I hope the Model Y gets its update before next January when I am due to turn in my lease and get a new Tesla. All the reviews on the upgraded 3 are very good.
390   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 4:19pm  

GNL says

Did it win any awards for being fugly?

Not yet. Did any car ever win any awards for being fugly?
391   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 4:25pm  

socal2 says

Looking at getting one of the new 3's for the wife and handing her Hyundai Santa Fe down to one of my kids.

I hope the Model Y gets its update before next January when I am due to turn in my lease and get a new Tesla. All the reviews on the upgraded 3 are very good.

Good choice. It’s getting raving reviews. The hope for the refreshed Y is this summer, or later this year at the latest.

As much I love the ride of the M3P, I’ll likely settle for a MYP or CT from a safety POV. Since we have a ton of credit for the solar we installed last summer, I’ll see how much credit we use up before tagging on more EV tax credit. The solar tax credit can be spread out over 5 years, but the EV tax credit is only good for 1 year. It’s good not to be in a rush to buy.
392   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Feb 19, 4:29pm  

Eman says

GNL says


Did it win any awards for being fugly?

Not yet. Did any car ever win any awards for being fugly?


i think pontiac vibe did, for sure had it in the bag.
393   socal2   2024 Feb 19, 5:04pm  

Eman says

Good choice. It’s getting raving reviews. The hope for the refreshed Y is this summer, or later this year at the latest.


I hope you are right. They have to be cagey about announcing so they don't "Osbourne" current Model Y orders.
394   HeadSet   2024 Feb 19, 7:00pm  

Eman says

Solar was not a viable option while he drives an X

Then that $10k installed generator will not be viable for that X either. Both solar and that price generator would be around 25kW.
395   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 8:06pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Solar was not a viable option while he drives an X

Then that $10k installed generator will not be viable for that X either. Both solar and that price generator would be around 25kW.

It’s adequate based on what he told me. He tested it and ran all appliances at the same time in his house to be sure, and it worked.

Based on my tracking, Tesla draws about 9.6 kW/hour on a 50A circuit breaker so it should work just fine. Owner also has the option to reduce it down to 40A, or 30A, or even less if desired.
396   Eman   2024 Feb 19, 8:09pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


Good choice. It’s getting raving reviews. The hope for the refreshed Y is this summer, or later this year at the latest.


I hope you are right. They have to be cagey about announcing so they don't "Osbourne" current Model Y orders.

I think it has already osbourned some. I know people who are waiting on 1) the tax credit of the refreshed Model 3 to kick in, and 2) the refreshed Y.

The low hanging fruits would be to use US made batteries/minerals and get the 3 to qualify for the $7.5k tax credit. This will boost sales bigly. And when the refreshed Y comes in the 2nd half of this year, it will 🚀.

Just my 2 cents.
397   WookieMan   2024 Feb 20, 1:23am  

Eman says

Based on my tracking, Tesla draws about 9.6 kW/hour on a 50A circuit breaker so it should work just fine. Owner also has the option to reduce it down to 40A, or 30A, or even less if desired.

What does a 50A breaker run you? 50' and maybe 100'? You do know the gauge of wire needed? You're already in a $20-50k overpriced car. Where are the savings? The electric alone will be $5-10k. You think you're gonna pay $50k in gas in 5 years? Nope.

Enjoy the drive. I don't dislike you for that. Just be realistic it is not cheaper or green. It's not. Kind of by a long shot. Again, it's coming, the tax hit. Gas tankers are maybe 1-2% of large vehicles. Regular cars cause more issues overall because of frequency. 30 cars versus 1semi cause more damage to roads. The day of reckoning is coming my friend. I don't want to see Tesla fail, but the day of reckoning is coming. Shit grid. Rare earth minerals run out. You're taxed out the ass. No one will buy them.

Hybrids can plug into a 20A regular circuit and get 60-90 miles. Still fuel up if needed. I don't get the disconnect here with you Eman and Socal. It doesn't make any sense. I can get a used car for $20k less that's bigger with more utility. My gas alone would be cheaper than the electric bill and that's assuming it is zero. You pay more for the car. That has to be factored in. Then pay for solar panels? lol. This is backwards logic. You're $100k deep in a car not saving you money. It's math.
398   socal2   2024 Feb 20, 8:21am  

WookieMan says

I don't get the disconnect here with you Eman and Socal.


For me - my Tesla Model Y was the cheapest luxury sports car I could afford. It is faster and more practical than a Porsche. Sure I could save some money and drive a Nissan or Toyota sedan, but what's the point of making a decent salary if I can't ENJOY some toys?

I LOVE driving my Tesla and can't stand driving ICE cars with primitive friction brakes grinding out, jerky transmissions, low torque, no all wheel drive and no cool features like auto-pilot and world class audio/visual system. Wife and I were enjoying Arrested Development on Netflix in my car this weekend while waiting on our son to finish practice.

I have been driving new cars for 25 years and am very aware of what my monthly cost of operation is - and I can confidently tell you that driving a Tesla is cheaper than driving other equivalent luxury cars. Maybe California changes all the tax structures to put EV's out of business down the road (doubtful) - but I have had an absolute blast the last 6 years driving EV's and saving money. I am currently ahead of the game.
399   GNL   2024 Feb 20, 8:41am  

The disconnect as I see it is, the original discussion started by Wookie toward EV owners is that EVs are neither cost effective, convenient nor environmentally friendly. He got plenty of pushback. I think all those are generally accepted in this group as well as acknowledging they're 1. A toy for the well healed and 2. Limited use cases.
400   socal2   2024 Feb 20, 9:31am  

GNL says

I think all those are generally accepted in this group as well as acknowledging they're 1. A toy for the well healed and 2. Limited use cases.


That was the case a few years ago. Elon always said he wanted to start with making high-end expensive cars with high margin then move onto more affordable cars as they ramp up production and perfect manufacturing.

The Model Y was the best selling car in all of the world last year. There must be alot of well healed people on the planet.

Also, the average Tesla exceeds the needs over over 90% of the US market based on their daily driving needs. Tesla's supercharger network is 2nd to none (getting better every day) which allows for long hauls.

But if you are one of the 10% who can't charge at home and drives 300+ miles every day, an EV is not a good choice.
402   GNL   2024 Feb 20, 11:16am  

socal2 says

GNL says


I think all those are generally accepted in this group as well as acknowledging they're 1. A toy for the well healed and 2. Limited use cases.


That was the case a few years ago. Elon always said he wanted to start with making high-end expensive cars with high margin then move onto more affordable cars as they ramp up production and perfect manufacturing.

The Model Y was the best selling car in all of the world last year. There must be alot of well healed people on the planet.

Also, the average Tesla exceeds the needs over over 90% of the US market based on their daily driving needs. Tesla's supercharger network is 2nd to none (getting better every day) which allows for long hauls.

But if you are one of the 10% who can't charge at home and drives 300+ miles every day, an EV is not a good choice.

You are conveintly leaving out the weight of these vehicles and the charging time on your way home from work.

I admit that IF Tesla did sell more cars than any other manufacturer, that is impressive. You say that is a lot of "well healed" people. What is the number of cars sold that were under $50G?
403   socal2   2024 Feb 20, 11:57am  

GNL says

You are conveintly leaving out the weight of these vehicles and the charging time on your way home from work.


For the majority of EV owners who charge at their homes at night - charging isn't even a second thought. I drive about 15,000 miles a year and only charge in my garage 1 or 2 times a week. Couldn't be easier.

GNL says

I admit that IF Tesla did sell more cars than any other manufacturer, that is impressive. You say that is a lot of "well healed" people. What is the number of cars sold that were under $50G?


It's true. Not just best selling EV or best selling luxury car, best selling car........period in 2023. Tesla did all of this despite no advertising and lots of Liberals and Conservatives hating on Elon.

I have yet to meet a Tesla driver/owner that plans on going back to ICE cars after enjoying the thrill and benefits of driving a GOOD EV.
https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/teslas-model-y-world-best-selling-vehicle-2023
404   WookieMan   2024 Feb 20, 12:56pm  

socal2 says

Tesla did all of this despite no advertising and lots of Liberals and Conservatives hating on Elon.

They've been advertising. I'm not sure how you haven't noticed. Heavy on Youtube. Likely an algorithm but they for sure have been. I've seen at least a couple ads a day.

I don't hate Musk or the cars. Just don't tout them as being green, cheaper than similar sized ICE cars that are half the cost. Takes 5 years to make up the cost of gas at least. Admit you've sat at charging stations for 30-45 minutes. I guess be honest about the car and its flaws. Price, inflated savings numbers, charging time, etc.

The actual driving experience didn't really move me. I don't need acceleration. I need utility and there's no Tesla that provides that from what I can get out of my current car. The charging stations are not set up for a Cyber Truck, so you're fucked at most stations if towing. People have been having to disconnect a trailer to charge. There goes 10 minutes before even getting it hooked up. I don't have time for that shit. I guess some people do.
405   GNL   2024 Feb 20, 1:44pm  

WookieMan says

The charging stations are not set up for a Cyber Truck, so you're fucked at most stations if towing. People have been having to disconnect a trailer to charge.

Bwahaha, the hits just keep on coming. That is sad...so sad. On top of all that, the truck is fugly.
407   Eman   2024 Feb 20, 3:48pm  

Looks like someone is having fun with their Cybertruck.



https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1760042563799589319?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
408   Eman   2024 Feb 20, 4:14pm  

I share the sentiment. Love Tesla mobile service. These techs are so good at what they do. $20 tip each time for about 15-30 minutes of work.



https://x.com/mahkusg/status/1759985230566568155?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
410   socal2   2024 Feb 20, 4:40pm  

Eman says

Looks like someone is having fun with their Cybertruck.


Apparently there is a "boat mode" where the battery can seal itself to protect it from water.

Won't be long before people will be rigging up outboard boat motors using the 220 outlet for power.
411   Eman   2024 Feb 20, 4:43pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


Looks like someone is having fun with their Cybertruck.


Apparently there is a "boat mode" where the battery can seal itself to protect it from water.

Won't be long before people will be rigging up outboard boat motors using the 220 outlet for power.

I didn’t know that. It has 110V and 220V outlets in the trunk bed. Are these water tight?

Don’t have $30k to burn on a Foundation Series so I’ll wait. 😅
412   Eman   2024 Feb 20, 4:56pm  

Tesla is working on getting the model 3 qualifying for the $7.5k tax credit. 🚀🚀



https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1759962755732533750?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
413   GNL   2024 Feb 20, 5:02pm  

Eman says

Heard people have been renting the Cybertruck for $400-$800/day with 2-3 days minimum. They’re not kidding.

Money don't make you smart. At least not in everything.
414   GNL   2024 Feb 20, 5:07pm  

socal2 says


Eman says


Looks like someone is having fun with their Cybertruck.


Apparently there is a "boat mode" where the battery can seal itself to protect it from water.

Won't be long before people will be rigging up outboard boat motors using the 220 outlet for power.


I heard they're working on an intergalactic mode. You'll be able to visit YourAnus.
415   WookieMan   2024 Feb 21, 7:56am  

Eman says

Heard people have been renting the Cybertruck for $400-$800/day with 2-3 days minimum. They’re not kidding.

Got a beanie baby for me? Who the flying fuck would pay $400/day for a rental??? I know, a complete retard.

Even in urban areas I can easily get a car for $60/day from a reliable rental place that does the same thing. This is retardation on a scale I haven't seen really in my lifetime. But I know it's been posted. Companies and commercial speak more than than consumers that are blind. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

Cyber Truck is a novelty that will die very quickly. Maybe 2 years.
416   Eman   2024 Feb 21, 9:45am  

WookieMan says

Eman says


Heard people have been renting the Cybertruck for $400-$800/day with 2-3 days minimum. They’re not kidding.

Got a beanie baby for me? Who the flying fuck would pay $400/day for a rental??? I know, a complete retard.

Even in urban areas I can easily get a car for $60/day from a reliable rental place that does the same thing. This is retardation on a scale I haven't seen really in my lifetime. But I know it's been posted. Companies and commercial speak more than than consumers that are blind. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

Cyber Truck is a novelty that will die very quickly. Maybe 2 years.

If someone is willing to pay $400-$800/day to rent the Cybertruck, they must have an intention for it be it making a YouTube video for their subscribers and making money on it, or whatever else. How could you call someone retarded when you didn’t know anything about them?

When the first batch of Cybertruck came out. The rental rate was $1-$1.2k/day. The market dictates how much a car can rent for regardless of how ridiculous anyone thinks of it. Your opinion is irrelevant.
417   WookieMan   2024 Feb 21, 10:00am  

Eman says

Your opinion is irrelevant.

Unequivocally false. That's the fucking payment per month for a day. That is pure retardation. 100%. Not even debatable. It's overpriced trash. Can't tow shit at mileage. It's a useless vehicle.

I'll give the sedans a chance, but they're also useless and don't work everywhere. Pure EV's are reaching market saturation. We still haven't even dealt with the one's that have 100k miles on them.

This is a stupid conversation that I know I'm right on. Tesla or whoever is not the future of cars. Legacy brands are with hybrids. Think what you want, you're wrong.
418   Eman   2024 Feb 21, 10:06am  

WookieMan says

Eman says


Your opinion is irrelevant.

Unequivocally false. That's the fucking payment per month for a day. That is pure retardation. 100%. Not even debatable. It's overpriced trash. Can't tow shit at mileage. It's a useless vehicle.

I'll give the sedans a chance, but they're also useless and don't work everywhere. Pure EV's are reaching market saturation. We still haven't even dealt with the one's that have 100k miles on them.

This is a stupid conversation that I know I'm right on. Tesla or whoever is not the future of cars. Legacy brands are with hybrids. Think what you want, you're wrong.

You think people spend $400-$800/day to rent a Cybertruck and have no use for it?
419   GNL   2024 Feb 21, 10:51am  

Eman says

When the first batch of Cybertruck came out. The rental rate was $1-$1.2k/day.

But now it's $400-$800 a day and falling like a rock?

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