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Patrick says

My point about seeds is that if there is a fruit, the seed is generally poisonous.

Yes, like peaches and apples.

HeadSet says

Patrick says

My point about seeds is that if there is a fruit, the seed is generally poisonous.

Yes, like peaches and apples.

But they also have medicinal properties, there are similar issues with raw beans etc. And not all seeds are poisonous. I generally eat fruits with seeds unless they are too big such as peach, avocado etc. Also the rhine is generally beneficial such as lemon or watermelon rhine and more

Patrick says

My point about seeds is that if there is a fruit, the seed is generally poisonous.

The definition of a fruit as you referred to is a ripened ovary or receptacle depending on the kind of plant/fruit. But your point about seeds being poisonous while true in some cases, is generally irrelevant to the seed oils concern because we don’t use poisonous seeds as a source of food/oil.

Watermelon, oranges, raspberries, strawberries, tomatoes, peppers, kiwi, cucumbers, are some examples of fruits. The seeds won’t kill. And they also are not used as oil sources.

Furthermore, and more relevant to the topic, Peanuts, coconut, olives, avocado, and sunflower are just a few seed oils used safely for hundreds of years. The devil is in the details not in the seed. If processed safely the oil is safe. If not, avoid them.

It's still true that if you crush any seed, the plant loses because it cannot reproduce from that seed. So evolution selects for poisons that punish animals that crush the seeds, in general.

PeopleUnited says

Watermelon, oranges, raspberries, strawberries, tomatoes, peppers, kiwi, cucumbers, are some examples of fruits. The seeds won’t kill.

Those seeds go right through you as a rule, but if you were to chew them up and eat a lot of them, they are all likely to cause problems.

Olive oil and avocado oil are made from the fruit, not the seed.

Then there is counter-evolution by people, who for millennia selected versions of plant seeds that did not make them sick. For example, wild almonds are pretty toxic. 25 wild almonds could kill a person. But by selecting the non-bitter ones over time, people bred almonds that are fine for people to eat in large quantities.

Wild beans were also toxic but were bred over time to be safe for people.

The original corn has anti-nutrients, as do wild peanuts.

Patrick says

It's still true that if you crush any seed, the plant loses because it cannot reproduce from that seed.

Life is not a competition, and a seed dying is not losing, it is a sacrifice.

If life is a competition, and if there are no rules from a higher authority, then every opportunity to defeat the competition by any means necessary is justified and even admirable. Imagine a world where survival of the fittest is a value system. In order to survive every violence against your perceived competition would be admissible and encouraged.

This is the main reason I challenged your assertion that seed oils are dangerous. You justified your belief in this doctrine based on erroneous information about the evolution of plants. You claim that plants evolved to poison animals that crush their seeds. But the reality is that plants, including in some cases their seeds and fruits, were created to provide humans and animals things like food and shelter. Evolution = change through time/generations. Plants have changed some since their creation, but their purpose is still to provide food, shelter and energy sources for humans and animals.

PeopleUnited says

Plants have changed some since their creation, but their purpose is still to provide food, shelter and energy sources for humans and animals.

If that were true, plants would never have thorns nor would we have toxic plants like nightshade, milkweed, and most mushrooms. Grab a stinging nettle and tell me that plant's purpose is to provide food for animals. Now humans can defeat these plant defense mechanisms like cooking nettles in soup or husbanding poisonous beans to a form safe to eat, but in their original form those plants are not suitable food.

Stringing nettles are medicinal. The thorns on other bushes might hurt you, but they help provide a safe place for other animals to hide and survive. I said food AND shelter for animals and people. Not all plants are food for humans, but all plants are food for something. And some provide shelter and energy sources.

Interesting tidbits:

Stinging nettles, like dandelions, were brought to America from Europe as food by some idiot and are now everywhere.
Nettles have stings exactly because they are very nutritious and would get eaten by deer otherwise.
As a general rule, plants may have either thorns or poisons, but not both, because they don't need both.

Before the fall on Adam and Eve, there were no thorns or poisons.

I see the Genesis stories as metaphor, not literally true. So I can accept evolution and still see a lot of meaning in the stories.

Many fruit seeds as well as vegetables and legumes contain ingredients that can be considered defense mechanisms and unhealthy in larger quantities. That's why I'm a big fan of fruits, they contain all the good stuff in maximum bioavailability while pretty much zero toxic ingredients. Fruits have been modestly vilified by the low carb / keto movement and some say they were only available in season and thus consumed in moderation, but I say you almost cannot eat too much whole fruit. Probably the most important part of a healthy diet imo, and delicious.

Patrick says

I see the Genesis stories as metaphor, not literally true.

You are entitled to your own beliefs. But it is guaranteed that one day you will change your mind. Genesis answers most of the questions a person should ask themselves.

https://answersingenesis.org/

https://x.com/aigkenham/status/1905572977011233142?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1905572977011233142%7Ctwgr%5E7903d04e336f8962091c277762e45e0bb2d1151e%7Ctwcon%5Es1&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fanswersingenesis.org%2F

https://www.thefocalpoints.com/p/new-study-seed-oil-fats-fuel-aggressive

NEW STUDY - Seed Oil Fats Fuel Aggressive Breast Cancer Growth

Omega-6 fatty acids increase triple-negative breast cancer growth through mTORC1 pathway; population data links high omega-6/omega-3 ratio to increased all-cause and cancer mortality.

Rapeseed, aka "Canola" oil is very high in ω-6 linoleic acid:

Among polyunsaturated fatty acids, Canola oil contains a high level (21%) of linoleic acid (ω-6)

5W-30 don’t consume it.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

5W-30 don’t consume it.

It functions well as a laxative, and it has antioxidant chemicals - just joking. Then again, what are seed and mineral oils?

Patrick says

https://www.thefocalpoints.com/p/new-study-seed-oil-fats-fuel-aggressive

NEW STUDY - Seed Oil Fats Fuel Aggressive Breast Cancer Growth

Omega-6 fatty acids increase triple-negative breast cancer growth through mTORC1 pathway; population data links high omega-6/omega-3 ratio to increased all-cause and cancer mortality.

Rapeseed, aka "Canola" oil is very high in ω-6 linoleic acid:

Among polyunsaturated fatty acids, Canola oil contains a high level (21%) of linoleic acid (ω-6)

This is a red herring. Linoleic Acid is essential for the body as it can't produce it. It's always a question of how much, sola dosis facet venenum. Plenty of healthy foods (e.g. nuts, esp. Walnuts among the healthiest of them all) are high in LA. Even its inflammatory potential is highly debated. LA is not a big problem when consumed in moderation, it's actually essential. It's the same as with the veggie and vegan cooks which claim milk fuels cancer, which is possible, e.g. due to IGF1, but it also strengthens bones and the immune system (which in turn prevents cancer). Testosterone similarly fuels prostate cancer, so for certain patients it may make sense avoiding T or LA, but without preexisting condition you are usually worse off without essential hormones and nutrients (such as fatty acids) since it prevents a whole lot of other things. Don't fall for this one sided junk science

Patrick says

You may want to check that. Soybean plants do not have ovaries and cannot make animal estrogen. Plants can produce phytostrogen that can make the body think it has too much estrogen and thus have the opposite effect of estrogen from a BC pill. Even that effect is minor, though.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210526/p2a/00m/0sc/014000c

A team of researchers in Japan has succeeded in making catfish all female with a compound found in soybeans -- a development that promises to increase the production efficiency of this and other species whose females are more valuable than males in the food market.

The team, from Kindai University's Aquaculture Research Institute and based at the institute's Shingu Station in Shingu, Wakayama Prefecture, used isoflavone -- a compound found in soybeans similar in effect to female hormones -- to create the all-female groups of catfish. The feat is a Japan first, according to the university.

As female catfish grow faster than males, "by making them all female, production efficiency will rise," commented team leader and aquaculture science associate professor Toshinao Ineno. "This can be applied to other farm-raised fish whose females are more valuable." ...

While 68% of catfish in the ordinary water tank were female, 96% of the catfish kept in the water with genistein at a concentration of 100 micrograms per liter were female. A concentration of 400 micrograms per liter yielded a 100% female group, the same as in the female hormone-treated water group.

OK, so not exactly estrogen, but hat estrogen-like effects.

Patrick says

A team of researchers in Japan has succeeded in making catfish all female

That happens naturally with ocean fish around here. Part of nature that fish turn from male to female as they age.

HeadSet says

That happens naturally with ocean fish around here. Part of nature that fish turn from male to female as they age.

Happens in my reef tank. You can buy a pair of decent clownfish 'mated' for ~$150. Or you can take the risk and buy two unknowns for around $50 each and wind up with two females that fight each other. Usually the larger fish becomes female if you start out with two males. Mine are black and white (I risked it) and the female has a trace of orange like Nemo on it's lips. Like lipstick haha..

Patrick says

Kings and Emperors are mentioned also, but not democracy.

Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution mention democracy either.

Patrick says

Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution mention democracy either.

You knew what I meant, but I will rephrase:

Kings and Emperors are mentioned also, but not republican government. The point is that not being in the Bible can be a matter of the era it was written rather than any proof of a deity's will. Otherwise, one should only ride on an ass or in a chariot and not in a car.

I know, just having fun.

Patrick says

I know, just having fun.

Hmm, maybe I can get even by making fun of you in a comic strip.

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/greasy-friday-august-8-2025-c-and

The New York Times wheeled out economist Emily Oster to inform America that, while Robert F. Kennedy Jr. might technically be right about chronic disease and our broken food system, he is definitely totally wrong in blaming seed oils. Oster claimed the science pinning obesity and other health problems on omega-6 oils like canola, safflower, and sunflower is “flawed” — just another case of correlation, not causation. (Even more guffaw-producing, she admitted that “better data” might later prove RFK Jr. was right.) The real villain, Emily insisted, isn’t the oil, it’s the deep-fried Oreo it slid in on.

Dr. Oster is obviously a greasy science denier. ...

Seed oils are exactly what they sound like — oils squeezed from the tiny seeds of plants like soybeans, corn, canola, cottonseed, and sunflowers. That all sounds very natural and healthy. ...

The snag is, seeds don’t easily surrender their oil. They greedily prefer to keep it for themselves. So extracting the oils requires an all-out industrial assault: high-pressure mechanical rollers, solvent baths in hexane, repeated heating, chemical refining to strip out unpleasant odors and revolting colors, and finally “deodorizing” to make the end product palatable. By the time the bottle hits the supermarket shelf, it’s been through more processing steps than a gas-station chicken nugget and looks more like industrial waste than anything found in nature.

That’s why critics call them “factory foods.” They’re not pressed like olive oil or churned like butter, they’re manufactured, the byproducts of an industrial chemistry set built to turn valueless agricultural waste into profitable, shelf-stable cooking fat.

Emerging science —the same kind of imperfect-but-actionable evidence Dr. Oster once cheerleaded— has been painting a consistently ugly picture of seed oils. High-omega-6 industrial oils like soybean, canola, safflower, and sunflower aren’t just inert cooking mediums; their polyunsaturated fats oxidize easily under heat and in the body, spawning reactive aldehydes that inflame tissues, damage cell membranes, and scramble mitochondrial function. They skew the body’s omega-6 to omega-3 ratio toward a chronic, low-grade inflammatory state, priming the immune system for misfires and front-loading the metabolism for insulin resistance.

Animal models and controlled feeding studies have linked high seed-oil diets to fatty liver, obesity, impaired satiety signaling, and cardiovascular dysfunction— especially when combined with refined carbs and sedentary living. In other words, they’re not the lone assassin of American health, but they’re definitely in the getaway car.