patrick.net

Eman says

🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Dude, did you click on the link? There's nothing there. On a website owned by the owner of Tesla. Linked to a congressional committee that's run by Dem Senators that tout this shit.

Let us know how those electric trains are going. The electric shipping container ships. Those electric semis that I've seen zero of. If it was more efficient these would be the industries making the changes first. They're not. Why is that? Golf courses are more advanced than trillions of dollars in shipping. Good luck even owning a Tesla without oil. It couldn't be built. So yeah it's subsidized for good reason.

Just admit you like to own an expensive car that doesn't save you money. It simply doesn't. You've admittedly stated you're over $100k in to fund a car basically. This isn't jealousy. It's pointing out stupidity. I don't care if you make $10M a year, it's a stupid purchase. Maybe make memories and not buy stupid shit because you could stroke out tomorrow and was the car worth it? Nope. Your priorities are a joke my friend.

Your true colors are being shown so you post "texts" "helping" friends out on million dollar deals. I'm calling bull shit dude. You don't get markets or how things are actually made by posting this meme. Enjoy the overpriced golf cart. You're out of your element.

Eman says

🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

A trillion? I'm very doubtful of that. I think what they are doing is including the ENTIRE US military budget in that calculation.

There should be no subsidies whatsoever. Eliminate them, and we will end up with the best solution if we allow the market to decide.

WookieMan says

RWSGFY says

With cars the game is completely different and in the US NTHSA will be breathing down your neck the very next day your jalopies start self-combusting.

I'd agree, but that 1 in 100,000 chance is not worth it. You can't put those fires out. You're generally trying to save your home at that point and the car is for sure totaled. Hopefully your life and family isn't.

Spec/stock ICE cars will not start on fire sitting in the garage. EV's cannot make this claim.

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

https://apple.news/AoJQFQaBXQ6K7K3W3BBdE0w

RWSGFY says

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?

GNL says

RWSGFY says

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?

Not enough failures for that, apparently.

RWSGFY says

Akshually

Did you attend K-12 in Oaktown?

RWSGFY says

No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Not quite the same from a purely engineering perspective: if each lithium battery has a 1 in a million chance of shorting out in a month, a laptop with 4 lithium cells would have only 1 in 250k chance . . . whereas an EV with 5000 cells would have 0.999999^5000 = 0.995 safety, or 1 in 200 chance of starting a fire (thermo run-away event), a ship transporting 100 EV's like that mixed in its cargo hold of thousands of cars would have only 60% chance of crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific (surviving one month at sea). The nature of the thermo run-away fire makes the system inherently unsafe when the large numbers pile up.

The above illustration only took into account risk associated with each lithium cell, not even taking into account the additional risks of each soldering point connecting lithium cells to each other or soldering debris left in the battery aggregate packs or cars' battery storage boxes.

Making them from thousands of cells is an engineering choice. It's not set in stone that it has to be done this way.

RWSGFY says

Not enough failures for that, apparently.

yeah good point as far as class action lawsuit , i was thinking of ralph nader's book unsafe at any speed ... need him or his successors (if there are any) to write a book about EV's

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

.

ad says

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

My dislike for EV's is people that say they're cheaper. I have no issue with Musk outside of being a massive government grifter in multiple industries. He wouldn't be able to do what he does without credits on products and literal cash from the government. He seems like a fun dude you could be friends with.

Depending on the model of Tesla you can get a similar sized car (or bigger) for $20-50k less. Say you finance it for 4 years or pay cash. In the financed scenario that's $5k/yr-$12.5k/yr on the high end instead of getting a hybrid. I drive a full ICE V-8 Nissan Armada. I spend maybe $3-4k on gas and it cost less than a Tesla. Has more utility and space. I know there will be a gas station, so no need to search for chargers. No need to worry about cold.

Now factor in something like a RAV-4 hybrid and my daily commute would be $0 in gas. You can get slightly used ones for $30k. I wouldn't qualify for the $7,500 tax credit due to income so full sticker price. Tesla mini "SUV" models are smaller and substantially more expensive.

There's not anything in this comment that can be denied. It's actual fact that Tesla owners just wanted a fun car to drive. And that's okay. I don't care, but I do care that the owners lie about the costs. It's simply not true. It will not be cheaper than a full ICE vehicle or hybrid. Never has. Gas savings are minimal and that's just for now.

For where a Tesla is best operated, it makes no sense to spend $20k+ versus comparable cars. Hell they don't even hold a charge in half the country this time of year. It's fun to drive and status. Plain and simple. It's not an argument. Just would appreciate owners would stop lying and just own up to their insecurities.

RWSGFY says

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

lol. You can't go full retard.

original link

Extra edit: This is just a rental. This guy spells it out almost exactly as imagined IMHO. And that doesn't include the price of the car if it was purchased and not a rental. They're not cheaper.

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

Eman says

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

You don't think like a business person though. You buy a big vehicle and get the better tax incentive and write the gas off and it's cheaper than a Tesla and has more function. Again, you wanted a fun to drive car and status. There's nothing more to this. If you're truly a business owner and investor you would have taken advantage of this. You didn't.

I buy used cars because they're cheaper and I'm not an idiot. I don't need a fancy or fast car. There's literally no reason for it besides ego. Nothing else. I'll say it again and again and again. It's a fun car to drive. It's stupid to own one. I guess I like to work with my hands and not drive a baby car around. I need to tow stuff. Tesla's wouldn't even charge last week in Chicago. You got yourself a $70k paperweight.

Eman says

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

19 years, lol. Rarely does anyone live in a home that long. You just covered someone else's electric bill. Even if you did the next Tesla will be $100k and the next $150k by then. You literally don't have any savings dude. You paid for a car on a monthly basis for solar on your roof, financed to charge your expensive car... Dude, you're not making any sense.

You still haven't factored in the charges that are coming. It will be even more expensive. Especially in CA. Rising state income taxes, more EV's on the road and there will be a EVT (electric vehicle tax). Your utility is going to charge you more. For the 40th time or whatever. You bought a car that is fun to drive and you like it. It's not cheaper. It's not green. Just say that. You're trying to justify something that isn't true by any data readily available.

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on this issue.

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here

“19 years”

It’s more often than you think. Ask all homeowners on Patnet how long have they been in their house?

We might be the exception, but I’ve been in our house for over 20 years. My older sister has been in hers for 27 years. Younger brothers 13-14 years. Youngest sister is 5+ years. She’ll likely keep it as a rental when she upgrades in the coming years. Low property tax basis, low fixed mortgage rate so why not. I bought this place 12 years ago during the downturn and she “inherited” the low basis.

Wife’s siblings, her youngest brother last move was 9 years ago. All others have been in theirs for 14-25 years.

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

WookieMan says

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles. If you are only in a market for a basic 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to get you around, Tesla would still be a luxury.

EV prices (at least Teslas) will continue to drop as Tesla continues to revolutionize manufacturing and battery production. Tesla has already dramatically reduced the cost of batteries and have been creating a price war in the last 6 months that is killing the other OEMs.

Guarantee you that Tesla will be able to manage their COGS a fuck-ton better than the other OEM's are going to manage their Union labor and pension costs they just dramatically jacked up last year.


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-ev-market-ice-price-parity-2023/

socal2 says

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles.

So? The COST of them is several times over.

GNL says

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

I know the average is 7 years, but it’s not common in my sphere of friends and family. We’re likely the exceptions. Maybe different cultures handle/view housing differently. Highly likely I’ll die in this house.

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Eman says

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

So what?

Doesn't change reality.

UkraineIsFucked says

So? The COST of them is several times over.

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

socal2 says

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Autistic boy replies with his same screechy bot type reply.

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

I already did. As have others, like Wookie has.. socal2 and Eman ignored it and started Tesla Fluffing.

That's what they do. I am not going to repeat the effort of what I have presented because those two Tesla Fluff to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Go back and read thru the thread if you like. Otherwise, don't bitch about 'lack of meat'.

socal2 says

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Out of context Tesla Fluffing aren't assertions.

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.

socal2 says

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂

Eman says

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here

That's true. Out of last 4 Ubers I took 3 were Teslas.

Eman says

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂

Tesla! Tesla! Tesla!

I am not the one who is insane.

And trying to avoid facts that prove EVs are an unsustainable, inscaleable fad vs what they were hyped to be only because it shits all over your precious Tesla won't work here, either.

HeadSet says

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.

Right, but most of the time I use ICE car for work so its not an issue to get public high speed charging point. At work, 7kw stations with 4h limit, Its not a solution for my model and also not convenient for me either. I was thinking to get a charger at home but I have similar concern like others above mentioned, fire hazard! Overall its a mixed bag!

Eman says

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be. This topic is one of them. Just because you see a lot of Teslas in your state and it seems normal, it's simply another luxury car in the rest of the country. I've been to CA enough to see all these people trying too hard by buying BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, Tesla, etc. It's literally half the cars on the road out there. I laugh when I see it because it's a waste of money on cars with no utility.

I'll be out in Montana Wednesday. I'm gonna make note of how many Teslas I see during the trip. I know for a fact it's going to be Toyota and Subaru by a long shot. This is why I ask if you leave CA often. Your view on cars is simply that of insecure men that want something cool in California. No different than in the 90's you'd buy a Corvette or Dodge Viper. I'm not wrong and this has been my point in all my comments. It's a cool car that's NOT cheaper than comparative ICE vehicles, yet you keep saying it's saving you $300/mo. You paid $70k to save $3k/yr in gas?? When you could have paid $50k for a hybrid and still saved $300/mo and invest the $20k difference. There's no logic to that.

You have a right to defend your purchase as much as you want. It's simply not smart or logical by any metric. That would be like over paying for an investment property because it looked cool, when you could have bought an okay looking investment property and made more. You did that buying a Tesla. Poor use of money because it drives fun and you thought it saves you money. It wastes money. Doesn't save. Just admit you guys bought them for fun. You know I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive of a car.