patrick.net

Being somewhat new here, I hadn't read this from Patrick yet.

Ultimately, there should be no income tax at all, only a tax on land values.

Ah, a fellow Georgist! I'm a left-libertarian like Patrick but I'd like to think that if rentierism was punitively taxed we wouldn't need so much Socialism; people living on the other side of the tracks would only have housing expenses relative to the value of the improvements the occupy, not the whole "cash flow" of the property, which would enable them to divert more of their income to hopefully productive pursuits.

Henry George himself had no truck with the big-S Socialists of his day. Alas, we're a million years away from any Georgist solution gaining ground. The economics of it are too subtle, and like Patrick I see the conservatives have enough riot power now to muddy and dumb-down any attempts at intelligent debate.

DANAIY, wow, so inspirational. I think I'm gonna pull the trigger today. Sure the only thing we can afford after putting away for retirement, maintainance, and rainy day fund etc is 800 square feet in the gang buster area but hey it's a home to call my own. I will be so proud of my sh!tshack and my kids will no longer be considered homeless. Yeah, the schools completely suck in the neighborhood but who needs an education these days when they can learn on the streets of hard knocks.

Sorry, but Portland has a ways to fall. I will sit on my dp and wait and see the slippery slope of unemployment, foreclosures, and expiration of the housing subsidy continue to impact housing prices. Rents continue to drop around here, too, down about 20% in the neighborhoods I'm tracking.

I highly doubt the Fed will raise interest rates as things continue to look ugly well into 2010.

I, too, have researched my area and I'm very comfortable sitting and waiting.

Yes, good luck to all.

Leigh says

DANAIY, wow, so inspirational. I think I’m gonna pull the trigger today. Sure the only thing we can afford after putting away for retirement, maintainance, and rainy day fund etc is 800 square feet in the gang buster area but hey it’s a home to call my own. I will be so proud of my sh!tshack and my kids will no longer be considered homeless. Yeah, the schools completely suck in the neighborhood but who needs an education these days when they can learn on the streets of hard knocks.
Sorry, but Portland has a ways to fall. I will sit on my dp and wait and see the slippery slope of unemployment, foreclosures, and expiration of the housing subsidy continue to impact housing prices. Rents continue to drop around here, too, down about 20% in the neighborhoods I’m tracking.
I highly doubt the Fed will raise interest rates as things continue to look ugly well into 2010.
I, too, have researched my area and I’m very comfortable sitting and waiting.
Yes, good luck to all.

Here, here...well said. DANAIY...love ya man but while inspirational, your words are a bit "young." I am happy for you and your family...that you are in a position where you have the resources to buy up property and, perhaps, not care if you lose money. Some of us are not in the same position. For me, I've taken risks in the past and failed. You talk about looking back on your life when you are an old man. I look back on the last ten years and realize that due to my risk and subsequent financial failure, I just lost 10 years of earning time and potential.

All I am saying is it takes all types. That is why the math is sooooo important. It is objective and a universal criteria upon which we all can determine whether a particular purchase is wise or risky. Best of luck to you my man.

Badd speling is a cine of inteligense.

I would like to see usery on money outlawed.
I would like to see a 50 year jubilee - where all debts reset to zero every 50 years
I would like to look and feel like I did at 20, but be as smart as my grandpa was at 80

Patrick is a good dude. And Patrick.Net is a bigger blip each day. I just hope Barry's Brownshirts don't find us.

Thanks Patrick for the information on the evil rich. I never ever knew that the rich consisted entirely of those nasty, evil conservatives. Apparently, liberal rich like George Soros are just in it to help people and not enrich themselves. Funny too, how liberalism promulgates control by the state over individual lives. The liberalism of today is not classical liberalism at all, but is in fact a radical form of leftist statist control over the individual. True conservativism, however, does in fact promote limited government powers in conjunction with individual rights. When liberalism forces their social agenda on those that may not agree with it, that too is a limitation on rights. Admittedly, the term conservativism has been tainted as well, due to people like George Bush and his neocon ilk. Our founders, who were true classical liberals, wouldn't recongnize this obtrusive government that continues to grow regardless of which party rules.

LOL, born and raised in the conservative Midwest. Please tell me why conservatives are so demanding of their form social welfare via MASSIVE FARM SUBSIDIES!?!?!

Don't act like liberals are the only 'socialists' in this country.

Oh, and oil subsidies, WTF?!?!

RayAmerica, I have been in the US for only 5 years now, so yes, English is not my first language and I apology for having any typos or misspelling in my comments, i trust you native English speakers to be able to read between the lines and generate intelligent responds...

DINAIY .... my post wasn't aimed at you. I was attempting to make fun of those that mistakenly think that bad spelling necessarily means a lack of intelligence ... it doesn't.

DINAIY .... and by the way ... is you speak 2 languages, you speak one more than I do.

And some of us native speakers can barely speak or write in our primary language!

As an RN who works with a few Indian doctors I have learned long ago to read their notes, bad spelling and all. Heck, if you got into and completed med school in the US, you ain't no dummy.

DINAIY says

There is a lot of logic in what you present here but I think that you ignore one important key point here. Economy is all about psychology. Its not math.

I disagree. It's all about lending. Most people will borrow as much money as they possibly can. House prices are limited only by interest rates and lending standards. If there is unlimited money to borrow, house prices will become infinite.

But now money is limited, and interest rates must rise, so prices must fall more.

Patrick, investing in real estate is an investment. You have to sacrifice your present for your future benefit. Renting may make sense today but the mind set of renters is a way different. You rent today, you most likely have more money in your pocket today which will be spent on retail consumption rather then investments and then what? Investing in real estate is a way of life, its learning how to save, being committed to something that you believe in and most likely self discipline. That is how you grow wealth.

I hope people are not that stupid as you describe Patrick. Cheap money is just one factor but also need to look at the numbers. I don't invest betting on appreciation. I put my money today in properties that make sense financially. I agree with your overall logic and theory but as much as there are still overpriced properties out there there are opportunities as well. Look for instance at San Jose which for the first time have cash flow properties. I'm taking about condo units which sell for $130-$160 and can rent out for $1,300-$1,400/month. There aren't much out there like these. All of them are foreclosed properties or short sales. I absolutely I agree with you, there will be more inventory coming in to the market, prices will go down in 2010 for the most part by 10%-15%, yet will the price on this specific condo units continue going down? I doubt it. Even if it will go down by another 20% within next 1-2 years from now so what? so instead of $160k it will be $130k? Rent will still be around $1,000 (job market is better then 2-3 months ago, corporate earnings' improving) its still not a bad investment. My advise to you all, yes it may go down by a little bit, but if you find a cash flow property in the silicon valley go for it. be patient. Its a long term investment. Sit on it for 10 years. As long as you can get it rented, you are safe.

DINAIY says

A rental would never look and feel like your own home! its as simple as that.

if I could reach ya, I'd slap ya. Trolly McTrollerson.

I'd rather live life as a renter in wonderful Portland than live life as a homeowner in a place I can afford, ie, Sioux City, Iowa, my home town, or anywhere w/in 1,000 miles of that place!

What is a life worth living if you are slave to your debt?!?!

Leigh,

I did some ecological research just north of Sioux City. Broken Kettle Grasslands, a Nature Conservancy project. As I recall the city did smell of a meat packing plant, but what else about it don't you like? Just wondering.

Bap33 says

DINAIY says

A rental would never look and feel like your own home! its as simple as that.

if I could reach ya, I’d slap ya. Trolly McTrollerson.

How in the hell could a rental not look/feel like your own home? A home is where you make it. I've had many rentals, owned a few houses. They all "felt" and looked like home.

AdHominem says

Leigh,
I did some ecological research just north of Sioux City. Broken Kettle Grasslands, a Nature Conservancy project. As I recall the city did smell of a meat packing plant, but what else about it don’t you like? Just wondering.

Ahhh, that reminded me of a good friend who did his research for his masters in the grasslands of South Dakota, I think north of Rapid City. He was counting beetles, I think, it's been so long. I do remember him saying how easy it was to get lost since the grass was nearly 8 feet tall and the place was as flat as could be, not too many landmarks. Makes me dream of the time when much of the Midwest was covered in native grasses and the top soil was over 2 feet deep. Now we are holding onto the last 2 inches and praying for science to save us.

Sioux City, if you approach from the south via I29 you first get greeted with the sewage treatment plant and then John Morrell. I do remember Sioux City making it into the New York Times when the stockyards closed in about 2002. Now a Home Depot is located in that spot.

If you are a home body, go to work and just head home, hit a couple of dive bars and focus on high school sports then the place is for you. Many of my friends that remain live across the river in Dakota Dune, SD, it's like the new country club plus no income tax though it's safe to say that most commute to jobs in Sioux City, IA. The lucky ones make it to Mexico every couple of years, some venture to Florida for a vacation.

The weather was a big factor, too, for my escape, the summers are hot and humid and the winters are frigid cold.

Now Portland, Oregon, have you ever been to Oregon? I'm a little over an hr from the Pacific Ocean, beautiful beaches though the water is cold! And I'm a little over an hr from Mount Hood though I'm just a snowshoe-er and Xcountry skier. The Columbia River Gorge down I84 is breath taking, many great hikes, wonderful for day trips. The Hood River Valley is amazing in the spring with all the pear, apple, and cherry blossoms and then head back in the fall for harvest time!

And for Portland, imagine neighborhoods where you can leave your car parked for days since the grocery store, cafes, parks and playgrounds are all a walk or bike ride away. We have numerous neighborhoods like that.

I've lived here for 15 years and it feels like permanent vacation. It's a great fit for me, the temperate climate and all. Some love the Arizona desert and heat, my sis loves upper New England, next month my brother is packing up and heading to Kauai for a while...follow your bliss!

Once again, what life is worth living if you ain't enjoying it?!?!

Leigh says

Once again, what life is worth living if you ain’t enjoying it?!?!

Some people prefer to complain about how the government is trying to shove healthcare coverage down their throats rather than to enjoy the health that they have. Not just here - at my work I overheard a conversation between two people who agreed that, if there was universal healthcare coverage, more people would go to the doctor. And that was a bad thing. (If more people go to th doctor, it's possible that less people would go to the hospital. Big savings in charity care currently funded by tax dollars and tax breaks to corporations).

Leigh says

I’d rather live life as a renter in wonderful Portland than live life as a homeowner in a place I can afford, ie, Sioux City, Iowa, my home town, or anywhere w/in 1,000 miles of that place!

There are many places that appear beautiful in pictures, only to smell really bad or be next to enviornmental disasters.

Heh Patrick, you have an interesting perspective, one worth listening to. My hubby and I came to the Bay Area in 2005 when people laughed at us for not buying a $650K condo in Dublin that was like 4 crazy break your neck on the stairs levels, 1100 square feet, ridiculous HOA. We were like, "Huh, if we buy this, what are we going to eat?" We were literally told by a real estate agent that no one in Calif. owned their houses anymore, they just had govt subsidized leases. When I told her, it's all a house of cards, it's going to come crashing down, she laughed and said not to worry, if that happened, the govt would have to bail everyone out because it would be utter catastrophe to the economy. Uhhh ... guess she was right! Most involved knew all along what would happen.
Anyway, that's not the point of my post. I'm curious as to your thoughts on outsourcing? I used to be all for it until I lived it or had to work where some functions are outsourced and now I just think it's pretty ridiculous and feel it's another way for executives to cut "expenses" (read: people doing work) so they can fatten their already insane bonuses. Why don't CEOs ever say, "Hmm ... heh, I should outsource my CFO because after all, what does he need to be sitting right here in sunny California for? His job could be done by email and telecon. He needs to be "strategic" so all the better if he's not here, mired in the day to day administrivia." No, no CEO or any exec ever says their job can be outsourced but the jobs of the real workers, execs want to outsource them all! Never mind that's how real work gets done and having actual people to run things is how actual work gets done. In all my experiences with outsourcing, it's a major pain to deal with for people on the ground, makes simple processes very complex and makes everything take 2 weeks longer to even have a meeting or tie one's shoe.
Let us know where you stand and what your perspective is.
--Avid patrick.net reader

The CEO and all upper management of all US companies should be immediately outsourced for sure. I'm sure there are some very competent Indians who could do their jobs much better than they could for, oh, 1% of what our upper management is getting paid now. But of course that won't happen, because it's not about efficiency or fairness. It's about making the rich even richer. Especially rich executives.

Totally unregulated international capitalism will make the rich even richer, but the rest of us will be doomed to lives of poverty under a hereditary artistocracy, just like our ancestors were trying to escape in Europe by coming here in the first place.

And not just the workers will be hurt. I think the whole country has been harmed in the long term by moving all manufacturing to China. Now when we can't pay our debts, and the smoke all clears, who actually has the factories that make the things we all need? China, not us. We will be dependent on them. We lose. We will have to pay whatever they say, or rebuild our own factories, and that won't be quick or easy.

There are efficiencies to be gained by different countries making different things, but the key to national freedom and prosperty is to avoid critical dependencies.

Leigh says

Now Portland, Oregon, have you ever been to Oregon? I’m a little over an hr from the Pacific Ocean,

I lived in Astoria, Vancouver WA, and Zig Zag (oddly enough at totally different times in my life). Portland rocks, really great city. You must be one really, really fast driver to make it to the Pacific in an hour, especially with the traffic gestapo in Hillsboro. Almost moved to Hood River but took a job in NZ instead.

Bob2356, 'little over an hour', I live in the west side right now and go midweek at odd hours so never hit any traffic and I only go 5 over the limit;O).

What were you doing in Zig Zag?!

I believe in these principles but i am confused about my identity in US. I am an immigrant and i came to know that there are only two parties in this country and i have to either accept one or the other. seems like GOD designed the parties and not humans.
OK here is what i believe in

1) fairness - All kids born on this planet should have equal rights and oppurtunities. Earth and its resources are part of nature and you have every right to grab it if its not fairly distributed. this means people cannot inherit anything from parents. schools are well funded to give education on par with best private schools. We don't allow monopolies in industry and same goes with not allowing monopolies ( family) in society.
2) Free - Everybody should be free to think and do what ever they want as long as they don't harm other emotionally, socially and in any form.
3) I am against gay people claiming the right to use the name "marriage". they shoudl keep low profile and get all the rights but not distort the meaning of normal by taking over the media.
4) i am against "abortion" ( exception : when its a risk to mother)
5) i am strong believer in "well regulated" free market. Regulation should be only to make it free and fair ( to avoid cheating like what happened recently during financial collapse)
6) tax ratio between rich and poor should be adjusted in such a way that the wealth distribution in the country remains in line with historic trends ( unilke what happened in last 10 years)
7) i believe in strong family principles, moral values and if possible a healthy dose of any religion.
8) i believe in global warming and i also believe that we need to use earths resources wisely.

Ok so am i democrat or republican ?

^ your 2 and 3 seem to be in conflict a bit, unless you want to say gay people getting married are harming other people emotionally, which is really a bit weird : )

I think gay people getting married should be just as normal as interracial people getting married, which was similarly illegalized and repressed 50 years ago.

As for 6, I think talking about tax ratios is really the wrong approach. As our host would say, we should tax land values a LOT more (this goes well with your 1, fairness). After we tax the rents out of land values, we may find we don't have to really tax incomes or sales more than nominally if at all. This is the Single Tax proposal from 100 years ago that makes a lot of sense to me since land is the primary artifact for disproportionate wealth distribution and also the main avenue for getting something for nothing in this country.

The reason there are only two parties in this country is because in any representative system there are two coalitions form in opposition of each other.

Your pro-life and religious stances makes you socially conservative and your fairness stance puts you way out sync with even liberal Republicans these days. I'd say you're a conservative Democrat, like say Senator Reid.

Leigh says

Bob2356, ‘little over an hour’, I live in the west side right now and go midweek at odd hours so never hit any traffic and I only go 5 over the limit;O).
What were you doing in Zig Zag?!

Yea, sounds good. It's a really nice drive, although I've hit ice frequently by the cutoff to jewell. I Always made it policy to stop and eat at camp 18 as much as possible.

Being in Zig Zag involves getting really wet mostly, otherwise skiing hood as much as possible. I had a forest service cabin that I stayed in a lot, especially when I lived out of state or country. I was there last year from Nov to Feb with all the big snow. Funny how the roads above Sandy were just fine, below Sandy were impassable. I'm overseas long term for now so I just very reluctantly sold it. Making 25-30 hour trips each way, 18 hours of it flying the rest sitting in airports with 2 small kids is just not practical in any way shape or form.

doing anything with two small kids, other than watching Pheneus and Ferb, is not practical in my world

Libertarians are anarchists without the bombs (most of the time) and shouldn't be part of any serious conversation concerning government. They don't want one. Libertarians should have been born at least 150 years ago. They'd be happier poking their flintlock out a loop-hole.

Bap33 says

doing anything with two small kids, other than watching Pheneus and Ferb, is not practical in my world

That's really sad. What about playgrounds, pools, beaches, the woods, doing puzzles, reading books, cooking, and all of the other activities that are supposed to be part and parcel of the parenting thing?

bob ... buddy ... humor somethimes is not based on reality. Lighten up a tad.

Bap33 says

bob … buddy … humor somethimes is not based on reality. Lighten up a tad.

Sorry, sometimes things don't always appear as humor. I have a great time with my kids and really am surprised by people who think their children are a drag on their life. I thought that was what you were saying.

I'm an ultra conervative in my parenting too. The fact my wife has been at home since before the first kid got here 13 years ago shows our approach. Anyone that starts breeding and then drops Skyler and Citrus off at childcare to head off to work should be ashamed.

Oh, ya, and I spank my kids for doing bad things. Sneaking, telling lies and disrespectful acts result in swift action. It has resulted in my kids being frustrated by the behavior that is accepted at school from other kids, but they are doing ok so far. One thing is obvious, welfare kids and working-mom kids all attend the same pre-schools and childcare. More than one teacher has said, "it is obvious to tell when a kid has a stay-home mom". That makes up for living in a shack and being poor. I just hate the fact that I have to toss them into the sea of dispare that is being created by liberalism, where hard work and moral behavior are laughed at.

Bap33 says

where hard work and moral behavior are laughed at.

LOL. You should be glad for this special form of liberalism that inhabits your mind. In your world, liberalism is creating a bunch of dopes ripe for the plucking.

and only the intelectual highground inhabited by liberals would allow a person such a great view of all of mankind so as to allow one to see what is in my mind, and in my world. Am I supposed to bow or check my shoe-laces?

Bap--

Seriously, does it make you feel better to blame everything on "liberals"? You don't really think that way, do you?

tatupu70 says

Bap–
Seriously, does it make you feel better to blame everything on “liberals”? You don’t really think that way, do you?

Liberals are currently destroying this country. I am sick and tired of people sugar coating this shit. WE WILL STAND UP TO THESE PEOPLE. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK.

people like this: http://www.sphere.com/nation/article/border-crossings-theres-an-app-for-that/19286630

deserve to be shot.

Why is it that conservatives always threaten violence when people do things or say things they don't like?

In my view that's a sign of a very weak mind.

Bap33 says

I’m an ultra conervative in my parenting too. The fact my wife has been at home since before the first kid got here 13 years ago shows our approach. Anyone that starts breeding and then drops Skyler and Citrus off at childcare to head off to work should be ashamed.
Oh, ya, and I spank my kids for doing bad things. Sneaking, telling lies and disrespectful acts result in swift action. It has resulted in my kids being frustrated by the behavior that is accepted at school from other kids, but they are doing ok so far. One thing is obvious, welfare kids and working-mom kids all attend the same pre-schools and childcare. More than one teacher has said, “it is obvious to tell when a kid has a stay-home mom”. That makes up for living in a shack and being poor. I just hate the fact that I have to toss them into the sea of dispare that is being created by liberalism, where hard work and moral behavior are laughed at.

Wow, really?

My Mom was a "stay at home Mom." And she's always been very liberal, and so was Dad. And we even got spanked. Whenever the school punished us or called home, we got it at home. They always believed the school in these matters. And I went to private schools where we had corporal punishment and uniforms. In high school we had a strict dress code. Disrespect, lying, and sneaking were always dealt with swiftly at home and at school. We were forced to attend religious services and pray at home. We were taught to love our country and to serve it. They made sacrifices to give us all of this and we were never "well-to-do." I wore "hand me downs" and yet we always had enough food and decent shelter. And my parents were madly in love and never divorced.

Why is it that conservatives always believe that they are the only ones who espouse certain ideals?

girls are much more fun than boys in the early years, but at 11 or so they make-up for it really quick. girls dont whine and cry as much, and are smarter/quicker to understand stuff. or, my son is just a hard head. lol. enjoy the experience. the time flies by.

Bap, any answer to my question and my telling of how I was raised? Is that any different from what you are trying to achieve?