patrick.net

simchaland says

The endgame for the right is fascism. Fascism is all about following the leader, without question.
The endgame for the left is communism. Communism is about following the crowd, without question.

Does this mean you are going to stop voting for the Dems? Awesome! To me, it looks like the endgame for both Dems and Repubs is fascism...but no need to nit pick.

Also, in practice, both of these ism's have been about following a supreme leader. See communist China, communist Russia, communist Cuba, fascist Germany, and fascist Italy--all run by a tiny group of very powerful people, not too much unlike the Dem and Repub vision.

Both Dems and Repubs want more power for the already bloated federal government. Allowing a small group to gain power over a large group is never good for the group. The small group in power will always spend vast resources convincing the masses that it is in their best interests to give the small group more power (both Dems and Repubs do this blatently). Using religion, favorable academians, employing "experts" who agree with you, etc. are all common tactics. In the end, it is always about a small group fleecing money and power from the producing public. Vote all Dems and Repubs out of office, in favor of those willing to uphold the constitutional limits of the federal government. Don't buy into the egalitarian smokescreen of the lefties or the god/free market lies of the Repubs.

marcus says

i don’t know, what are some other ways that i can consider people inferior to me?

If you read the classic, "How to win freinds and influence people", a main theme in the book is how human nature will instantly judge others to be inferior. Typically a person will judge others by their own virtues--a personal measuring stick. An artist might judge others by creativity, an athelete by physique, an academic by vocabulary, etc. Learning to suppress this divisive instinct, and then to see and compliment a unique and positive trait in every person is the book's theme.

Carnegie uses a dog as an example of how to get people to like you. Why are dogs universally loved by people? Because we have learned that a dog is always happy to see you, regardless of the situation. Nothing makes a dog's day more than a little attention from you.

marcus says

or maybe call those who disagree with you an infidel.
i don’t know, what are some other ways that i can consider people inferior to me?

well ... hmmm .... teabaggers ring a bell? homophobe? capitalist pig? The left minded folks are better at shaping public opinion through vocabulary -- at least, to me it seems anyways. That makes sense really, they are more vocal in general.

But, marcus, I don't disagree that you see things they way that you shared. Your life experiences, coupled with your personality, shaped your view just as mine have done to me. Agreed?

pkennedy says

welfare recipiets aren’t where you find the American dream. You find a basic existence. Go show us you’re hardworking and capable, start a business and stop complaining.

I think what you're trying to say is that welfare "recipiets" should get off welfare and start a business. I like the part too about "stop complaining." There's way too much complaining out there, particularly from the left.

Troy says

How do you rebuild manufacturing when there are still 200 million Chinese able if not exactly willing to work for $300/mo?

Amazingly, the Globalists were able to convince the majority of Americans that this would be possible. That was back when the politicians and the media were all proclaiming the same message: globalist trade will lift all people to higher lifestyles. Along with that lie came another equally effective lie, i.e. that the economy is "shifting from a manufacturing economy into a service economy." The fact that wealth is created when things are produced never seemed to cross their minds. These unfair, unequal trade policies have helped the Chinese "worker" albeit somewhat, etc. but have been devastating to the American worker. Now reality is setting in. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been eliminated forever. These workers are being told that they need to "retrain." Retrain for what? The middle class has been vehemently attacked by the elitists for several decades. Now, middle class Americans find themselves deep in debt, their retirement savings plans vastly diminished, many are upside down on their mortgages, and are either out of work or soon to be. Along with this, millions of illegal aliens are allowed to steal jobs from a workforce that has been crippled. When the state of Arizona steps in to do something about it, the Federal Government sides with the illegals against the citizens of Arizona. All of this didn't just "happen." IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class. I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country. Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

CBOEtrader says

Question for the more bible/torah inclined folks here: Is Leviticus the only place that says homosexuality is wrong in the new/old testament?

Romans 1

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
….

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

RayAmerica says

I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country.

Life isn't all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There's such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

Bap33 says

But, marcus, I don’t disagree that you see things they way that you shared. Your life experiences, coupled with your personality, shaped your view just as mine have done to me. Agreed?

Sure, but as CBOeTrader said, one might "learn to suppress that instinct to feel superior." I think in my case I had to hit certain lows (not morally - but with career, and in other aspects of my life) before one day having the experience of seeing a bunch of poor strangers on a bus as my equals, no better no worse.

I didn't learn to suppress it, it just went away at some point, and not out of a desire to be liked. Just a sudden shift. Maybe a kind of growth experience "moment of clarity" that many or most people have from time to time. Sure I still judge people at times. I still have my insecurities, and my moments of arrogance.

Many of us, if we have had good fortune, be it through our gifts, or our family that we were lucky enough to have, or if it was from hard work alone and persistence and determination, then it is our success and even our wealth that maybe becomes the frame of reference or measuring stick that gives us a sense of superiority. I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it.

So Bap, since there is less tendency to be rich on the democrat side, and less tendency to be fundamentalist Christian, I guess there is also more of a tendency to be what I would call, truly humble. You might say that it is our humility that makes us superior (just kidding).

elliemae says

Nomo contributes in a positive manner.

I like the comedic relief. Also, when he decides to actually discuss something his posts are interesting. Unfortunately, most of his posts revolve around the theme of calling a right leaning poster either an am talk radio junkie, or a whiner, or a racist.

Nomograph says

I’m saying the wasting your days complaining about welfare and food stamps is a losing proposition.

When a democrat type states that the republicans have destroyed our economy, and the opportunities for the working class are disappearing, that isn't a problem for you. When a right leaning type says the democratic policies are destroying the working class, you call him an AM talk radio junkie, or a racist, or a whiner. Your uneven response is not logical, and is boardering on trolling. If you don't like what Ray has to say, why don't you just ignore it?

CBOEtrader says

When a democrat type states that the republicans have destroyed our economy, and the opportunities for the working class are disappearing, that isn’t a problem for you. When a right leaning type says the democratic policies are destroying the working class, you call him an AM talk radio junkie, or a racist, or a whiner.

That is the Crux of the biggest fundamental problem facing America, and will hinder any and all efforts to pull out from our Romefate nosedive.

And the same could be said in reverse CBOE don't kid your self.

marcus says

Sure, but as CBOeTrader said, one might “learn to suppress that instinct to feel superior.” I think in my case I had to hit certain lows (not morally - but with career, and in other aspects of my life) before one day having the experience of seeing a bunch of poor strangers on a bus as my equals, no better no worse.

I have had the exact same experience. I remember the specific day when I realized how judgemental I had previously been towards homeless and poor people. I had to come an inch from bankruptcy to realize how much of a natural asshole I am. It helped me kick the MTV version of reality I was playing in my head as I chased my riches. Probably the most valuable lesson I have learned in life: your ego is a trap.

Now, I often feel bad for rich people, especially rich people who hit it big on their first lucky swing. They may never have that eureka moment. Many of them will be slaves to their own egos for their entire lives.

marcus says

Sure I still judge people at times.

The buddhists believe that this only goes away completely upon enlightenment, though I am not sure which is the cause and which the effect. They also believe it is a one in 10 million type of person that can get there.

I am definitely not blessed with natural spiritual talent, though I'm trying.

"Many of us, if we have had good fortune, be it through our gifts, or our family that we were lucky enough to have, or if it was from hard work alone and persistence and determination, then it is our success and even our wealth that maybe becomes the frame of reference or measuring stick that gives us a sense of superiority. I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it."

A very wise statement!

Tenouncetrout says

That is the Crux of the biggest fundamental problem facing America, and will hinder any and all efforts to pull out from our Romefate nosedive.

This is exactly why I keep harping on this issue.

Tenouncetrout says

And the same could be said in reverse CBOE don’t kid your self.

Sure. It took the republicans 25 years to realize that their leadership was lying to them. I am hoping the democrats can figure this out much sooner in the power cycle.

I will also openly admit my mind is encumbered by logical fallacies, Pavlovian responses, and the like. Much like Nassim Taleb in his "Fooled by Randomness" book series, though, my personal theme is to try to recognize this fact, and work to overcome it as much as I can.

Here is a great article about a guy who attempts to live his life purely rationally--which is almost impossible.

http://www.esquire.com/features/rationality-project-1108

"My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours..."

Nomograph says

You’re just saying that because you are a whining racist AM talk radio junkie.

See, that's the Nomo we WANT around here. Why can't you be funny like that all the time? Does it come in waves?

Nomograph says

As someone who would best be described as libertarian, I look unfavorably upon almost all ideologists, right or left.

ROFL !!! Cite one single example when and where you have EVER been unfavorable to any position from the left. PLEASE …. I’d love to see it.

CBOEtrader says

“My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours…”

No! I'm just a Nut Sack with a half a brain.

RayAmerica says

ROFL !!! Cite one single example when and where you have EVER been unfavorable to any position from the left. PLEASE …. I’d love to see it.

You don't get it rayray. you seem to be trying, but you really don't get it. RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

As I said before, you need to meet more people.

ellie .... for a change, instead of making snide, personal remarks, etc., comment specifically on where I am wrong in the following:

RayAmerica says

Amazingly, the Globalists were able to convince the majority of Americans that this would be possible. That was back when the politicians and the media were all proclaiming the same message: globalist trade will lift all people to higher lifestyles. Along with that lie came another equally effective lie, i.e. that the economy is “shifting from a manufacturing economy into a service economy.” The fact that wealth is created when things are produced never seemed to cross their minds. These unfair, unequal trade policies have helped the Chinese “worker” albeit somewhat, etc. but have been devastating to the American worker. Now reality is setting in. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been eliminated forever. These workers are being told that they need to “retrain.” Retrain for what? The middle class has been vehemently attacked by the elitists for several decades. Now, middle class Americans find themselves deep in debt, their retirement savings plans vastly diminished, many are upside down on their mortgages, and are either out of work or soon to be. Along with this, millions of illegal aliens are allowed to steal jobs from a workforce that has been crippled. When the state of Arizona steps in to do something about it, the Federal Government sides with the illegals against the citizens of Arizona. All of this didn’t just “happen.” IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class. I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country. Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

Nomograph says

Look at some of my responses to GaryA’s posts. You two are cut from opposite sides the same cloth.

Please be specific. What policy or program that is promulgated by the left that you specifically disagree with? Are there several, two, one? Please name them.

CBOEtrader says

I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it.”

Great point. That is exactly what I've found in "religion" too. In my opinion, religion is not at all what God has in mind for man. Man created religion, not God.

Many people are religious about lots of things - school, work, brushing teeth, bar, dance clubs, Monday Night Football, NASCAR, and for some it is church attendance. God wants a relationship with man. Being religous and not having love in your heart will not work out well.

As far as being judgemental ... that is all anyone does. Even when you judge me to be (or not be) judgemental, you have been judgemental. There is nothing wrong with judgeing a persons actions or expressions. Those are used to shape ones opinion of a person. The judgement that is wrong is saying who is going to hell and who aint. You can judge only the outward things, but God judges the inward things - your heart and soul.

CBOEtrader says

“My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours…”

Sounds like the flip side of the popular 70s book, "I'm okay you're okay."

I'll read it.

RayAmerica says

All of this didn’t just “happen.” IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class.

I don't completely disagree with your observations, but I frame it a different way.

Could we have realistically claimed that capitalism and a free market economy are right, without advocating the same system for all countries ? That is globalization, which leads gradually to a leveling out income differences (bad for us) was inevitable, unless you advocate isolationist policies, which ultimately would have to led to bad outcomes anyway.

We can't have global capitalism, but only the good parts, that benefit us.

And a world government may be inevitable. Think of the savings in military expenditures. But we better get the US government together first.

marcus says

world government may be inevitable

Mo' money mo' problems I think.

Before world gov't would have to come integration of Canada, US, and Mexico. The retarded 30% of this country has been made deathly afraid of Canadian socialism, and of course we already have too many Mexicans here for their taste.

Just like there is a "Former Soviet Union" I think it's more likely there will be a "Former United States", with the Bible Belt being the Ukraine, the West/Midwest being Russia, and the East being the Baltic states and regaining sovereignty.

It is fairly typical that those that advocate fair and equal trade policies are labeled “isolationists.” This is unfortunate, but admittedly effective because once that label is applied, it closes all meaningful debate. I don’t know of a single, credible person that is advocating isolationism when it comes to trade. If you do, please name him or her.

As far as a world government is concerned, its creation and the policies enacted as a result would be anything but peaceful. Imagine the ultimate, mega, centralized government that mandates, by force, conformity across the board. Marx & Engels advocated this in their political philosophy, which of course was in fact implemented in practice by Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro, etc. resulting in the elimination of millions of people by state certified murder. There is absolutely nothing in history to illustrate that any group of human beings, let alone elitists, yielding the unlimited power of a totalitarian centralized government would result in anything peaceful. Whenever totalitarianism has been implemented, no matter how seemingly well intentioned, the heads of the non conformists have always “sneezed in the basket," as further illustrated by the French Revolution.

Troy ... you might not be too far off in your Balkanization theory. A top Russian political scientist, not too far back, predicted the USA would in fact break up into regions along the lines of the Balkans. Not too long ago, such a theory would have been considered completely whacko. I don't think it's all that crazy of a thing to ponder now. Personally, I have never seen such stark division in this country. I think the case can be made that we are approaching the same fault lines that preceded the Civil War, possibly even worse.

RayAmerica says

ellie …. for a change, instead of making snide, personal remarks, etc., comment specifically on where I am wrong in the following...

elliemae says

RayAmerica says
elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”
As I said before, you need to meet more people.

RayAmerica says

Something has made you bitter, maybe that’s it.

RayAmerica says

Are you trying to tell me that this is what “hope & change” is all about?

RayAmerica says

I honestly don’t know what point you were attempting to make. I’m sure there is one, but I couldn’t find it

RayAmerica says

I’m offering a spell check service for Patrick.net and am hoping to sign up my first client.

RayAmerica says

I like the part too about “stop complaining.” There’s way too much complaining out there, particularly from the left.

RayAmerica says

I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

My remarks aren't meant to be snide. Your message leads one to believe that the US is going to hell in a handbasket and that there's nothing to look forward to. You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as "Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. " Yet you're still here, so you must either respect us or have nowhere else to go.

Either way, it appears that there's no positivity in your life and you're waiting for the end of the world. I'd recommend taking a walk in the sunshine, sitting out under the stars, playing a game of touch football, dipping your toes into the ocean/pool/stream... Life is too short to be as miserable as you purport yourself to be. And I mean this all in the most constructive of ways. I work with the elderly, and those people who were miserable all their lives are merely better at it when they get old.

simchaland says

Rayray is just throwing out chum here folks. There’s nothing to see here. Move along…

Your chum, ellie.

elliemae says

You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as “Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. ”

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago. Humor is an orphan when it comes to you.

Ellie .... why am I not surprised? I challenged you to specifically address the points that I made in my post. Instead, you ignored them, and spent all your time copying and pasting completely out of context posts that I have made that are irrelevant to our discussion. This seems to be a favorite trick of yours, being that you use it so often. So be it. I interpret your refusal to address the points made by me as either a lack of ability on your part to effectively do so, or, your agreement with said points. Either way, I guess, I win. Thanks so much for playing. It’ been fun.

elliemae says

Either way, it appears that there’s no positivity in your life and you’re waiting for the end of the world. I’d recommend taking a walk in the sunshine, sitting out under the stars, playing a game of touch football, dipping your toes into the ocean/pool/stream… Life is too short to be as miserable as you purport yourself to be. And I mean this all in the most constructive of ways. I work with the elderly, and those people who were miserable all their lives are merely better at it when they get old.

Thanks for the free psycho analysis and therapeutic advice, but, happily, I don't need it. Personally, I am a realist and am very content in that realistic world view. I not only have a realistic hope in this world from a personal perspective, but in the one to come. How about you? What is the reason for the hope that lies within you? Would you mind telling me?

RayAmerica says

As far as a world government is concerned, its creation and the policies enacted as a result would be anything but peaceful

I didn't say I was for world government soon. I just said I think it is inevitable. It might not be that far off. Maybe just a few generations.

As for how peaceful it will be ? The transition could be tough. This country came about with a certain lack of peace, with the British, the French and with what is described by some as the genocide of native Americans. But what we have now is not totalitarian, it's a collection of states under the umbrella of a federal government.

Let's see where the more modern experiment of the European union goes.

RayAmerica says

Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro

I don't claim to have a sound argument for it. It is an example of me doing the "I feel it in my gut" kind of thinking when I say that I believe a world government is inevitable. It is sort of a science fiction topic. Speculation. But it is also optimistic really. Let's face it we (humanity) are still somewhat young. All the land has been accounted for, but there is still positioning for natural resources. We're coming to the scary realization, that even though everyone in the world should have the kind of life we have here in the US, that in reality, the earth probably can't support typical average american levels of consumption for 7 billion people, or more.

By the way, why is it that in this country, one state never invaded another for it's gold, or for it's oil ?

Troy says

Just like there is a “Former Soviet Union” I think it’s more likely there will be a “Former United States”, with the Bible Belt being the Ukraine, the West/Midwest being Russia, and the East being the Baltic states and regaining sovereignty

I don't know Troy. I respect your intelligence and enjoy your posts, but this is crazy talk.

If it get's close let me know. I hope I can move to the richest or best region before everything blows up.

No way, if even one state was breaking off, say Texas, that might be enough to wake us up to finally reform our government.

CBOEtrader says

Does this mean you are going to stop voting for the Dems? Awesome! To me, it looks like the endgame for both Dems and Repubs is fascism…but no need to nit pick.

If the Democratic Party was actually a Liberal party then I'd disagree with you. Lately it seems that both parties are right of center. Therefore the end game for both of our corrupt major parties is fascism. And we're going there fast.

I see a dick-tator in chief, with his armed thugs, all wearing a cresent moon patch, watching us board the train to the dregs. If that is fascism, then we agree.

marcus says

that might be enough to wake us up to finally reform our government.

Government isn't the problem, people are the problem. I didn't mean to say that the division of the US is likely, just more likely than being subsumed into a global government.

Perhaps *both* would happen tho. If the current system can't move itself to restore the 1993 top marginal rates, I think this political failure would augur a future of getting pretty squishy economically, best case being a Japanese-level circle-jerk debt-to-GDP ratio, worst case a Treasury debt default singularity that I can't see beyond.

20% of this country are Tea Party twats, ~40% are Christian end-timers -- we're talking tens of millions of idiots here. They are defective and they tend to pass their affliction on to their children.

There is no media voice advocating anything intelligent, economics-wise. Krugman might come the closest, but I haven't seen anything from him that goes beyond just kicking the can down the road.

Nobody understands economics in this country; there's a range of beliefs from Mises through Mankiw to Keynes but it's all bullshit.

I may be wrong, but my reading of this chart

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

is telling me we've got a pain train coming and things are going to go centrifugal not centripetal.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

RayAmerica says

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago. Humor is an orphan when it comes to you.

In order to qualify as humor, it must be funny. Attacking people because they disagree with your point of view simply isn't funny. Perhaps you should identify your jokes, then we'll have an easier time recognizing them.

RayAmerica says

I challenged you to specifically address the points that I made in my post.

You didn't challenge, you demanded that I do so. Your opinion that you've "won" simply because I don't stoop to your level is simply your interpretation that this is a competition. Life isn't a competition, rayray. At least mine isn't.

RayAmerica says

Instead, you ignored them, and spent all your time copying and pasting completely out of context posts that I have made that are irrelevant to our discussion.

There was no discussion, just your pontificating to an anonymous audience.

RayAmerica says

I not only have a realistic hope in this world from a personal perspective, but in the one to come.

You have another perspective coming? That would be most refreshing.

RayAmerica says

What is the reason for the hope that lies within you? Would you mind telling me?

I'm an optimist. I see the glass as close to full - and enjoy my life. I'm not a self-righteous victim of an oppressive world. Now it's time for you to attack me personally. Kinda funny, considering that we've never met.

...moving on... yawn

[wiping tears from eyes]
It's funny because it's true...

Jimmy Fallon, I thought Fallon was part of that SNL crack pot History making machine.
Yeah the not ready for prime time players, aren't ready for political pontifications either.
Where's Tina Fey, what that Bitch aint got no good one liners or a snappy Zinger about our Commander and Cheese?
She can see Political candidates from her house for Christ sakes.

I still like Obama. He's definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Nomograph says

If you want to know my opinion about a particular policy or program, just ask.

Do you support the private-public business partnership known as the Federal Reserve?
Do you support "central banks" in general?
Do you believe central banks manipulation of interest rates is beneficial to the majority or a minority?
Do you support the secrecy under which central banks operate?
Do you support fractional reserve banking?
Do you support expansion of government into health care and insurance?
Do you support the American military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, the Philippines, South Korea, etc... (130 countries in all)
Do you support the Patriot Act?
Do you support the bailouts?
Do you support the "too big to fail" theory?
Do you support the "war on drugs"?
Do you support the Kyoto treaty?
Do you support NAFTA?
Do you support the income tax?
Do you support an open border policy or should we restrict who is allowed to immigrate and emigrate?
Do you support government subsidies of housing?
Do you support government subsidies of agriculture?
Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?
Do you support minimum wage laws?
Do you support Guantanimo Bay "enemy combatant" detention center?
Do you believe it is the right of the majority to take away the rights of the minority?
Do you believe that any person has the right to know and judge or even restrict what Americans do in the privacy of their own homes?
Do you support the government subsidies of "higher education"?
Do you support State/Federal/Municipal Employee Unions?

The funniest thing about these jokes is that only one of them was actually made by the person it's being attributed to.

Though that should be obvious, since most of the people on that list don't make jokes that lame (except for Jay Leno, who hasn't said anything funny in 20 years).