patrick.net

Central banks are not a "leftist" thing.

Fractional reserve lending is a fundamental reality in any financial system.

I support expansion of government into health care and insurance. Such a system worked very well for me when I lived in Japan, much better than the alleged free market system we have now, with its two duopolies, Wellpoint and KP taking their skim for f-all. Government single payer works great in Canada, Australia, NZ, and the Eurosocialist nations, too.

Foreign occupations are not a leftist thing.

PATRIOT Act is not a leftist thing.

Bailouts / "Too big to fail" were not a leftist thing.

"War on Drugs" is not a leftist thing.

Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming is a leftist thing and I fully support it. Better safe than sorry in this respect -- "The Tragedy of the Commons" is not a fictional story.

NAFTA is not a leftist thing, it was initiated by GHWB and handed off to Clinton.

Income tax is not a leftist thing per se. All 3 major candidates for President in 1912 supported the 16th Amendment -- Taft, Wilson, and Roosevelt. While there are better tax regimes, a progressive income tax with redistributive spending serves to limit the unhealthy concentration of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands so I support it.

Limiting immigration is a leftist thing. It's the pro-business conservatives who want cheap labor in this country. There is no easy answer on this question. We need and profit from the cheap labor, but we want to send them back when we don't need their labor. This is somewhat odd and impractical. Libertarians believe in open borders, I think that is the future but we're going to need a lot of adjustments to get there.

As for gummint subsidies in general, they are generally bad. But the alternative is arguably worse in some cases. So there you are. I am strongly against housing subsidies, government (or some nice non-profit, take your pick) should be operating housing for poor people who can't hack it in the real world.

I see no problem with minimum wage laws, though they are set too low to accomplish anything.

Guantanamo is not a leftist thing.

I believe the majority can take away the rights of the minority with due process. No right exists in a vacuum. Wear your damn seatbelt Mr Galt. But I believe that which has no side effects outside the home is not in the public interest to regulate, yes.

I fully support government subsidized higher education for I believe everyone should have the opportunity to become, and remain, the most productive a citizen they can be, without regard to ability to pay. I believe this should extend to subsidized local transportation and health care too.

I do not support gov't unions as they are constituted now. They're part of the problem not part of the solution. The more power we give to the state the more power gov't unions have over us. This is bad.

10oz, these are fake attributions.

Patrick, not just a hard job, impossible job.

American households owed $8.7T at the end of 2002.

2003: $9.8T (+$1.1T)
2004: $10.6T (+1.2T)
2005: $12.2T (+1.6T)
2006: $13.4T (+1.2T)
2007: $14.4T (+1.0T) ⬅ peak debt
2008: $14.3T
2009: $14.1T

To put things in perspective, mailing a $1000 gift card to every household in the US every month would be LESS a stimulative than 2004-2007 Bush Debt boom time.

This is pretty clear to me but I don't see this mentioned in economic talk, even Krugman misses mentioning it when important.

they are semi-funny, tho.

agree with the Leno statement. I saw him in concert at Caesar's Palace, it was two hours of my life I'll never get back.

Nomo,

I agree with the vast majority of your responses. I would appreciate some clarification of your thoughts on a progressive income tax though.

Nomograph says

Yes. I support a strongly progressive income tax as the only proven system to delay extreme wealth concentration and subsequent economic and civil upheaval. I also support a strong inheritance tax to delay the formation of an aristocracy. Notice I use the words “delay” in both instances.

The way I see it, the federal income tax results in the bloated central government. A bloated central government breeds an aristocracy. The super rich use the federal government to entrench themselves into oligopolies (see health insurance industry, auto industry), to increase the barriers to entry for smaller (future) competitors, and use public funds as a private source of revenue padding (financial, health care, energy, military industrial, etc).

http://mises.org/etexts/rootofevil.asp

I think we should 1)eliminate all federal employment taxes, 2)eliminate all federal capital gains taxes, 3)implement a national consumption tax, 4) enforce a strict constitutional limit on central government powers, 5) enforce strict anti-trust laws--no company should ever become too big to fail 6)allow states to implement whatever they like, such as employment taxes, capital gains taxes, social programs, wealth distribution programs, or a more free-market economy as its residents choose.

elliemae says

Now it’s time for you to attack me personally.

I asked you for the reason of your personal "hope" and you interpret that as a personal "attack." Thanks for doing your part to keep this discourse on a mature, intelligent level.

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

Troy says

Central banks are not a “leftist” thing.

no one said they were but thanks for the straw man post

It's cheap for two reasons.
First off Asian markets owners typically try to forge relationships with their patrons.
If they can get something at a decent price, they typically pass the savings on.

The second reason is people aren't stupid. One day there's a 50 sq mile plume of oil 1500 feet thick, the next day it's reported that it's all gone. People are already concerned about mercury poisoning from the seafood, before the spill. People are doing with out seafood for a while, until what ever they put in the water to make that big oil plume dissapear is more understood. Or the missing Oil plume is discovered. People aren't stupid, just because the Gulf has a different name, it's the same Ocean as the waters off of the coast of Maine.

Good on ya for shopping local mom and pops. Screw the company store.

AdHominem says

Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?
Do you support minimum wage laws?

Yes and only after the Government has made due diligence to make sure our food supply isn't gamed.
I mean if the Government is already guaranteeing farmers crops and they are being paid to produce. Then Food Commodities should be taxed 80% to offset the hardship and help pay
food stamps and hardships.
It makes no sense. Investors take a beating in other markets so they go to commodities to only to hedge but recoup their losses. They invest in things like Wheat and Pork Bellies, which raises the prices of these commodities before the market has dictated the demand. which sets the price the Government will guarantee. Then to make sure that the demand for the supply is met. Our Government turns around and subsidizes those who can't afford these artificially inflated prices.

The Government is there for reasons, and those reasons aren't for a Long Tail of Fraud and deceit to game. The Original reason was to protect the Farmer during bad growing seasons and drought. Or else it would be easy to wipe them out in one or two growing seasons. Of course we were more into Domestic consumption then. And didn't classify fresh edible local sourced produce, as "Organic" "Green" and "Whole food" I think we called it the Tomatoes stand where you bought a sack full of stuff of $4.00.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support the private-public business partnership known as the Federal Reserve?
Do you support “central banks” in general?

Within limits.

Good, I'm glad you understand the need to limit Feds power. I'm sorry you support it at all seeing as how the Fed is essentially the unelected branch of government that has grown in power and scope to the point where the mere words of Ben Bernanke can strike fear in the markets and congress. It has failed to stabilize prices and destroyed the purchasing power of the dollar. Furthermore as the power of government grows, the risk of abuse of that power grows at an even greater rate.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you believe central banks manipulation of interest rates is beneficial to the majority or a minority?

Sometimes both, sometimes neither. Historically, without a central bank interest rates tend to be around 20-30% for most people from private lenders (i.e. loan sharks, which is the only place most citizens could borrow money).

Since lending and borrowing go hand in hand when the market can know that money supply is restricted and stable, high interest rates are not bad. When risk is high, high interest rates encourage savings and help steer investments into lower risk ventures. In general, central banking was invented by the elites for the elites. Any benefit to the working class has been temporary and offset by the increasing wealth disparity between the working class and the elites.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the secrecy under which central banks operate?

Loaded question with a presupposed conclusion. Rephrase around a specific program or policy.

The meetings of the Federal Reserve, FOMC, plunge protection team, Presidents working group on Financial markets etc.. are not accessible to the public. The FED won't even reveal who got what as part of its bailout programs. The Fed can swap US dollars for other currencies, gold etc... with central banks and such around the world and never reveals what it is doing nor allows an audit of its activities (not even after the fact). Do you support this secret manipulation of domestic and world markets and currencies?

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support fractional reserve banking?

To some degree, but much less that we currently have. Leverage can be extremely enabling when used judiciously.

Agreed. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. The elites are much better at using leverage than the average Joe, so fractional reserve banking tends to enable them at everyone else's expense as mentioned above. Furthermore, fractional reserve banking constitutes fraud (most people believe that their checking/savings account money is safe and can be demanded at any time).

As a libertarian, we need not be arbitrarily against all regulation. However when we see that the Federal Reserve is giving power and leverage to a powerful minority at the expense of the vulnerable majority we have crossed the line.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support expansion of government into health care and insurance?

Single-payer health care like EU countries have is far more efficient than a for-profit insurance based system. I support a single-payer system. I do not support a for-profit insurance-base health care system for empirical reasons.

I agree, if by efficient you mean lower costs and relatively increased access to some forms of health care. I would even support a single payer type system with an opt out for those who prefer not to pay into the pool it just like my employer does. For profit insurance is inefficient by design. But just because for profit insurance is inefficient does not mean a single payer government run program is better. Nor is mandatory contribution to health care consistent with American concepts of Liberty and self-determination under divine providence.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the American military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, the Philippines, South Korea, etc… (130 countries in all)

Only in cases where there is a clear and present danger to the US.

What is clear and present danger? Danger to our economy? Danger to our military bases? Danger to US businesses gather profits from outside our country? The vague threat of terrorism?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the Patriot Act?

No.

Good. But if it is wrong why are we not working to repeal it?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the bailouts?

Be more specific. I don’t support or oppose anything on ideological grounds.

In the past 2 years the FED and congress have provided low interest rate loans to banks and other corporations, essentially saving the "too big to fail." Do you support this?

In the past two years congress has authorized tax breaks to home buyers and car buyers in attempts to stabilize the prices and sales of housing and automobiles. Do you support these interventions in the market?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the “war on drugs”?
Do you support the Kyoto treaty?
Do you support NAFTA?

No, yes, no. In regards to Kyoto, free markets don’t work for everything; pollution is the most glaring example, protection of human rights is another.

Glad you don't support NAFTA and war on drugs. And you are right, free markets cannot regulate morality. It is immoral to pollute (destroy what does not belong to you) and violate human rights. However finding a balance between a society that has the means to protect the vulnerable without creating a society where the elites can use government to enhance themselves at the expense of the vulnerable majority is key.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the income tax?

Yes. I support a strongly progressive income tax as the only proven system to delay extreme wealth concentration and subsequent economic and civil upheaval. I also support a strong inheritance tax to delay the formation of an aristocracy. Notice I use the words “delay” in both instances.

Yes, I do notice your terminology. One possible solution that would be perhaps even better at delaying the concentration of extreme wealth is to have a generational reset like they had in ancient Israel. The land was divided amongst the inhabitants at the start. Then the free market took over, however every so many years the land must be returned to original owner (or his descendants).

Furthermore, voluntary charity is far more efficient at redistributing resources to places, projects, and people valued by society than is government.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support an open border policy or should we restrict who is allowed to immigrate and emigrate?

I support open borders within reason (i.e. criminals, drugs and human trafficking, etc).

Good, I agree. However, if we end the war on drugs than we don't need to regulate drugs any more than we do sugar or tea.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies of housing?

No, except for homeless shelters that primarily serve the mentally ill. Almost all chronically homeless are mentally ill and incapable of “bootstrapping” themselves.

Good, however mental illness is in the eye of the beholder.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies of agriculture?

Generally no. I do believe that the bulk of our arable land should be preserved for farming in the future as population grows. This is a matter of national defense and self-sufficiency.

Agreed, however I doubt we need regulation or subsidies to achieve this. The market will allocate land to agriculture if it makes the most sense to the owners interests.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?

Only for short periods of time. To be honest, I don’t know that much about welfare nor do I care. It isn’t something that concerns me or occupies my mind very often.

Welfare is an important part of our culture and a major force in the lives and decision making of millions of Americans. Furthermore we must recognize that what we subsidize we encourage more of. The vast majority of Americans do not want to be on welfare, and would prefer to be self sufficient. However as government hand outs, bail outs etc... grow more and more people are coming to expect other people to subsidize their own mistakes and misfortune. We are creating an entitlement culture, while dismissing personal and corporate responsibility. As a nation in debt, with an aging population and shrinking real productivity, these are trends that should be on our radar screen. They must be recognized and dealt with before government overreach and debt causes the system to collapse on itself due to the sheer weight of over-expansion.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support minimum wage laws?

They have a time and place. Now is not one of them, but they were important in the past in the US. Minimum wage laws would be useful in certain third world countries.

Great, there is a time and a place for just about everything. To everything turn, turn turn....

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support State/Federal/Municipal Employee Unions?

I support free labor markets. Laborers should be free to unionize, and employers should be free to oppose such unions, and the market will arrive at a compromise. To oppose unions means so support government restriction of labor markets.

Agreed, and that is my point. As an employer (taxpayer), I feel that State/Federal/Municipal unions are counterproductive and should be abolished.

O.K. but that's the Obama bong, not my brand.

I roll Nader Taders.

Sorry. I won't play this shell game. This topic is a trap. Nomo will have to do much butter than this. I really can't fathom his logic. No matter how hard I Triton, it's too deep for me. Not only that but I don't want to catch something.
Grotto go now. The Scalloping Gourmet is on the telly.

AdHominem says

The market will allocate land to agriculture if it makes the most sense to the owners interests.

Mr Market is a short-term optimizer, is path-dependent, and only optimizes locally not globally (ie does not consider wider impacts). Adam Smith has its limitations you know and it is dangerous to take his arguments as an article of faith. This is similar to Marxism preferring doctrine over reality.

Optimizing results on the longer-term and the wider basis requires an extra-market force. Some call this the State, others call it "the gummint".

RayAmerica says

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

What don't you understand about a $4T+ debt overextension, Ray?

If that line continued on its 2005-2008 trajectory we'd still have the Bush Boom.

However, since the Bush Boom was created by the creation of around ten trillion of new debt and not organic growth, the economy is in the process of finding bottom, and it's going to be a long and painful process at that.

Giggle away, idiot.

Troy says

Mr Market is a short-term optimizer

Exactly, if the owner derives more pleasure from letting his land sit he will do so. That is exactly what I said. The owner will do with his land what he considers best for him. ( the good news being that most people desire profit from their investments) I trust the majority of individuals to maximize productivity on their own property more than I trust Washington DC to maximize productivity, were the "gummint" to dictate land use from the top down.

AdHominem says

Exactly, if the owner derives more pleasure from letting his land sit he will do so. That is exactly what I said. The owner will do with his land what he considers best for him. ( the good news being that most people desire profit from their investments) I trust the majority of individuals to maximize productivity on their own property more than I trust Washinton DC to maximize productivity, were the gummint to dictate land use from the top down.

The problem occurs when everyone decides to sell their farmland for condos over a relatively short timeperiod and we're left with not enough corn, beans and wheat to feed our population. Each farmer was maximizing his profit, but the effect on society was catastrophic.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Troy says

Central banks are not a “leftist” thing.

no one said they were but thanks for the straw man post

RayAmerica says

policy or program that is promulgated by the left

Ray did. He seems obsessed with Elliemae, the left, and welfare, more or less in that order.

Nomo - I'm pretty awesome. I can certainly see why someone might be obsessed with me, 'cause I've got it all. Brains, Beauty, I'm damn fun (and funny too), and I have quite a bit of patience. (this is usually the slow time of year, too...)

I hate Obama says

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

Damn. Now that the award's been given out, there's no sense in trying. :(

You started this thread just so you could carp on Mikey. Did the whole thing on porpoise, you little shrimp. Meanwhile, he sits around on his bass looking for a way to answer.

Don't answer, Mikey - he's just trying to bait you 'cause you're quite the catch. I'm going dolphin, myself. Things are getting rough.

@Troy,
why attack another poster? The point made by this thread (in my humble opinion) is that funny people that clowned Bush are now clowning Lord Barry. The untold joke is how those who support Lord Barry do not find these people nearly as funny now that it's their clown in the circus. That's just how it goes, I guess.

I would like to hear Code Pink's explaination for not showing up on the links, or at some other relaxation jaunt, to protest Lord Barry's willingness to kick-back (pun) while sending boys off to die .... doesn't that bother anyone else? Are the dead soldiers more acceptable to Code Pink, et al, now that a half-white progressive leftist is telling them where to go get killed? That just don't seem correct to me.

Bap33 says

The untold joke is how those who support Lord Barry do not find these people nearly as funny now that it’s their clown in the circus. That’s just how it goes, I guess.

I didn't find many of the Bush jokes funny.

Tenouncetrout says

Jimmy Fallon, I thought Fallon was part of that SNL crack pot History making machine. Yeah the not ready for prime time players, aren’t ready for political pontifications either.

Are they still called the not ready for prime time players? fallon's gotta go, imho. However, he did a St. Patrick's Day bit on his guitar where he channeled Eminem that was about the best I've seen on that show in years.

You forgot to add the most important "quality" on your "I so awesome" list: self delusional.

Ellie is kindly trying to keep me from getting filleted and I appreciate her kelp, but holy mackerel and cod dammit, why does everybody's big mouth have it all bass ackwards? It keels me for reel, buoys and gills. Shore I could fire back under the pier pressure to keep the barracudas at bay but I'm a Betta man than that. I harbor no eel will.

Didja say all that for a reason, Mikey - or was it merely for the hallibut?

Obsessed with Elliemae says

You forgot to add the most important “quality” on your “I so awesome” list: self delusional.

Nope - checked the list and didn't see that one there. I looked between "self aware" and "selfless." Wanna know any other of my wonderful traits?

Obsessed with Elliemae says

elliemae says

Now it’s time for you to attack me personally.

I asked you for the reason of your personal “hope” and you interpret that as a personal “attack.” Thanks for doing your part to keep this discourse on a mature, intelligent level.

Called that one right, didn't I?

I agree dadab, 10-15 or 20 years even, and of course none of us have even a clue of what it will look like in 10 years, with so many unknowns and yet to happen events, but overall the best days of our lifestyle in the usa are behind us, and the best days of the BRIC's are just starting to be coming up, it is anothers turn, and that is what we have to realize.

Multi-generational mortgage liens have arrived! :)

Does anyone remember collapse of the Roman empire? Nah! we are the USA. We are blessed by God and immune from any trouble.

I aint been up late enough for SNL since John Belushi and Eddie Murphy where regulars.

Well bless my sole, Ellie, I thought I otter tackle the subject. You know, I'm kind of better than James Bond. I have a license to krill. And my rod is for reel, too, and that''s not a line.

Nomo, it's better to sell cheap lobster than dead lobster.

The biggest benefit to the recession thus far is travel and vacation. In 2006, Maui was cramped, service was lousy, lines were long, restaurants was chaotic, beaches were not private, even in five star property, tee time were for VIPS. Not much of a vacation.

Fast forward to October 2009, Maui is quiet, pools and beaches are quiet, restaurants are romantic, the town does not feel touristy, service level kicked up two notches, and good tee times are plenty. Never enjoyed travel more. We booked this October to take advantage while if lasts and plan to book as many as possible.

Yeah, this is the year that the term "staycation" has entered our dictionaries in the US. I'm going to have a staycation during the first week of September. It's Rosh HaShanah. It's my brother's birthday. My Mom needs me because she's undergoing some serious medical testing and will need someone to be present for her. I have Jury Duty in the middle of the week. And I'm going to the periodontist because of a "pocket" they found on my gum where my gold crown is...

Beyond that, I'm going to try to do something fun I haven't done before here in the area. There are plenty of places I can play "tourist" in the area. I like staycations. They're much cheaper and sometimes less hassle than having to go to the darn airport, deal with hotels, rental cars, etc.

mikey says

“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the

merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini.

But when he was in charge, the trains ran on time! ;)

Bap33 says

The point made by this thread (in my humble opinion) is that funny people that clowned Bush are now clowning Lord Barry.

Only they're not, because the attributions on all but one of these jokes is a lie (The Conan one is real, and, unsurprisingly, it's the only actually funny one on the list)

You can tell the origins come from clueless right wingers because every single joke is being attributed to a late night comedian, generally Jay Leno, but nobody under 50 actually watches these people.

It's the same sort of idiocy that for some reason thinks that Obama voters like Rosie O'Donnel.

These jokes aren't unfunny because they're directed at obama by the way -- they're just unfunny. It's the kind of humor that you find in one of those idiot parody movies by Freidberg and Seltzer, or maybe a Dane Cook standup special.

Here are a few primers on humor that's actually funny:

1. The joke should be funny because it's actually true, and probably a slight exaggeration of the truth.
2. Simply saying something mean is not funny.
3. Things that are on people's minds due to similarities between people, recent events, or highly visible rumors can also be funny.
4. Things that happened long ago are rarely funny, unless you came up with something really unique.

So, making a joke about Obama's citizenship can be funny. Making a joke about the Republicans being in the closet can be funny. Making fun of John Boehner's skin color can be funny.

Saying how you'd like someone to die, leave office, or that you just hate them isn't funny, it's just stupid angry ranting. Making fun of Bill Clinton's infidelity WAS funny, 10 years ago, but there really aren't any new jokes to tell there.

elliemae says

Obsessed with Elliemae says

Funny how that works... In nearly every thread initiated by Ray that I have visited (a small sample to be sure), elliemae is one of the early respondents, and most often initiates some type of lightly-worded personal attack. In this thread alone, elliemae baits Ray with off-topic, personal comments until she gets to the point in the exchange where can then accuse Ray of personal attacks. Perhaps Ray also responds to every thread that elliemae initiates in a similar manner, but if one only reviewed Ray's threads, the question of who is really obsessed with whom gets quite muddied... Is Ray obsessed with elliemae? Is elliemae obsessed with Ray? Or is elliemae obsessed with elliemae? Or a little of all of them?

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Exactly, if the owner derives more pleasure from letting his land sit he will do so. That is exactly what I said. The owner will do with his land what he considers best for him. ( the good news being that most people desire profit from their investments) I trust the majority of individuals to maximize productivity on their own property more than I trust Washinton DC to maximize productivity, were the gummint to dictate land use from the top down.

The problem occurs when everyone decides to sell their farmland for condos over a relatively short timeperiod and we’re left with not enough corn, beans and wheat to feed our population. Each farmer was maximizing his profit, but the effect on society was catastrophic.

Has this actually happened? Is our population lacking in corn, beans, or wheat, or have prices raised so substantially that people cannot afford these things? Wouldn't the increasing prices prompt others to get into the farming business?

Paralithodes says

Has this actually happened? Is our population lacking in corn, beans, or wheat, or have prices raised so substantially that people cannot afford these things? Wouldn’t the increasing prices prompt others to get into the farming business?

I'm assuming these are rhetorical questions, but I'll answer them anyway.

1--Not that I'm aware of. As our government continues to subsidize farming, I wouldn't expect it to.
2--There have been occasions where one or more of the main staples have been scarce and become more expensive, but in general, no.
3--I would expect that increasing prices would eventually cause others to get into the farming business. But, I would expect that it would take some period of time to convert land back to farming.

Wait a minute Mikey posts something, and every one but Mikey are doing spin control, and knows which one is attributed and which is not. I'm confused, did Mikey lift this from somewhere, and you folks knows exactly where of you speak. Or are you all just that big of spin bag tools?

And how do you know these weren't attributed as to how Mikey presented them?

It sounds lifted to me, Teno. If Mikey manufactured it there would be puns involved. Elementary, is it not?

Here's an artist's impression of Obama's windows desktop.