patrick.net

Don't have access to video at this moment. You asked if I could read so I assumed it was in your post using vowels and consonants.

I have never been for this health care bill, I am a single payer fan. My problem with the Tea Party is that they don't know what they are angry about.

I have yet to have a Tea Party interaction when someone has given me details. I can't even find it on their websites. No details! No solutions!

I have never been for this health care bill, I am a single payer fan. My problem with the Tea Party is that they don’t know what they are angry about.

Either you're not listening or you're dishonest. It's clear as day to anyone paying the least amount of attention the the Tea Partiers are angry with the extreme growth in government deficit spending and the increases of govt intrusions into our lives.

And for those that don’t think of it as a crisis think of your premiums and then go get sick and see how much out of pocket you have to pay. I just got word of my ER visit for my toddler’s broken clavicle in SF. Luckily we found an in-network hospital. We owe $450.00 and that’s WITH insurance.

Regarding ER costs, this NY Times article http://ur.lc/irw points out several misconceptions:

Emergency Room Myths
By FREAKONOMICS

The overutilization of emergency rooms is often cited as a dangerous symptom of America’s broken healthcare system. But a new Slate article from Zachary Meisel and Jesse Pines offers a rosier picture of emergency room usage, and dispels several pervasive myths. They write that E.R. care represents less than 3 percent of healthcare spending, only 12 percent of E.R. visits are non-urgent, and the majority of E.R. patients are insured U.S. citizens, not uninsured, illegal immigrants. Meisel and Pines also point out that E.R. visits don’t necessarily cost more than primary care visits: “In fact, the marginal cost of treating less acute patients in the ER is lower than paying off-hours primary care doctors, as ERs are already open 24/7 to handle life-threatening emergencies.”

Devastates the pro-HC case that emergency rooms are a primary culprit of runaway healthcare costs

ZippyDDoodah says

I have never been for this health care bill, I am a single payer fan. My problem with the Tea Party is that they don’t know what they are angry about.

Either you’re not listening or you’re dishonest. It’s clear as day to anyone paying the least amount of attention the the Tea Partiers are angry with the extreme growth in government deficit spending and the increases of govt intrusions into our lives.

And when asked to give specific examples they can't pull one out of their arse.

And when asked to give specific examples they can’t pull one out of their arse.

I'll name two big ones, Tea Party types were strongly opposed to TARP and the pork laden stimulus bill. If you will recall, it was Bush, with Obama's support and teaming up with Nancy Pelosi with Dem majorities who pushed through the TARP bailout, opposed only by House Republicans. Tea Party types didn't like it a bit. Can you honestly say that you've never heard those specific examples coming from the Tea Party? I believe that you're being dishonest.

I don’t understand your point. I wasn’t supposed to take my toddler to the ED?

Any rational person can see what my "point" was. Your drama-queen antics don't help your case

ZippyDDoodah says

And when asked to give specific examples they can’t pull one out of their arse.

I’ll name two big ones, Tea Party types were strongly opposed to TARP and the pork laden stimulus bill. If you will recall, it was Bush, with Obama’s support and teaming up with Nancy Pelosi with Dem majorities who pushed through the TARP bailout, opposed only by House Republicans. Tea Party types didn’t like it a bit. Can you honestly say that you’ve never heard those specific examples coming from the Tea Party? I believe that you’re being dishonest.

I think what has happened is that the TP Movement has been invaded by radicals and uniformed folks egged on by the likes of Glenn Beck. Kind of like how Anarchists take over the spotlight of leftist movements.

ZippyDDoodah says

I don’t understand your point. I wasn’t supposed to take my toddler to the ED?

Any rational person can see what my “point” was. Your drama-queen antics don’t help your case

LOL, of course I'm not rational. I work full time and have a 3.5 year and 14 month old. I've been in a constant brain fog for 14 months!

So I mention my visit to the ED and you post that Freakonomics link. Was my post just an entry point?

Leigh says

ZippyDDoodah says

I don’t understand your point. I wasn’t supposed to take my toddler to the ED?

Any rational person can see what my “point” was. Your drama-queen antics don’t help your case

LOL, of course I’m not rational. I work full time and have a 3.5 year and 14 month old. I’ve been in a constant brain fog for 14 months!
So I mention my visit to the ED and you post that Freakonomics link. Was my post just an entry point?

Your point, zip, gets lost in your snarkiness. Can't see past it.

Pssss, EllieMae, help me out. What was his point?

Just got this wonderful piece in the mail..."Imagine if the Tea Party Was Black" - Tim Wise

http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea-party-was-black-tim-wise.html

Leigh says

Pssss, EllieMae, help me out. What was his point?

I think that his point is that you should watch a video he found on youtube. His snarky "can you read?" question didn't pan out so well, considering that you said
Leigh says

Don’t have access to video at this moment.

ZippyDDoodah says

I’ll name two big ones, Tea Party types were strongly opposed to TARP and the pork laden stimulus bill. If you will recall, it was Bush, with Obama’s support and teaming up with Nancy Pelosi with Dem majorities who pushed through the TARP bailout, opposed only by House Republicans. Tea Party types didn’t like it a bit. Can you honestly say that you’ve never heard those specific examples coming from the Tea Party? I believe that you’re being dishonest.

I believe he's saying that he's mad as hell and he's not gonna take it anymore. I'm not sure what "it" is, tho.

Leigh says

10 oz trout, what solutions do you think of when pondering the health care crisis?
And for those that don’t think of it as a crisis think of your premiums and then go get sick and see how much out of pocket you have to pay. I just got word of my ER visit for my toddler’s broken clavicle in SF. Luckily we found an in-network hospital. We owe $450.00 and that’s WITH insurance.

Only $450? Not bad. I had a routine physical that somehow cost me $500. Some doctor grabbed my balls while I coughed and they ran a cholesterol test, basic liver panel, and a CBC.

At least the doctor was super hot. Her part of the cost was $200.

And I have insurance! I believe I got screwed because it got marked as 'preventative medicine.' If I had the same sort of thing done with my specialist who monitors this rare condition I have, it would have cost me far less.

At the time, my girlfriend was a PA and I had her look it over and she didn't seem to think I was being screwed. Of course, I later would find out that she was a crazy bitch so perhaps I should have had a second opinion.

I find it remarkable how people's partisan feelings distract them from realizing how much stupid shit is going on right now. I have sympathies with the tea party movement since I believe the growth of government is problematic in general (adding on overpaid beaurocrats does not an economic recovery make). However, with that, I think Bush II was a remarkable failure, and he grew government (both civilian/military) more than any president. Any Tea Partier that doesn't acknowledge this is in fact an idiot.

Furthermore, while the health care bill doesn't look helpful, the current system is a complete failure cost-wise. We don't have a 'free market' in health care by any means...it's just one screwed up mess that's an unholy alliance between government entitlements, health insurance companies, and the medical industry. Either we need reform that addresses the 'buffet-like' nature of our current health care system, where doctors will prescribe/run tests to inifinity and 90 year-olds will have hip replacements paid for even though they have terminal cancer....or we can just say fuck the whole thing and have socialized medicine and be like France....at least it costs less.

Leigh says

Excellent point, TOT! That’s why single payer AKA KILL THE HC INSURANCE INDUSTRY is the only solution I see.

The world is full of unintended consequences, If you don't see how the current system will get adsorbed into the federal mandates, that guarantees a steady profit, then you are my Jr. and I don't talk adult talk to kids.

Leigh says

10 oz trout, what solutions do you think of when pondering the health care crisis?

I'd take a full blown federal Medial system from education to facilities even at the expense of tangible tax increases, over a corporate/government screw job.

.

Leigh says

I have yet to have a Tea Party interaction when someone has given me details. I can’t even find it on their websites. No details! No solutions!

Oh shag off! you elected this Dolt armed with miss information and half truths.

Tenouncetrout says

Oh shag off! you elected this Dolt armed with miss information and half truths.

'
In other words, Leigh, don't ask so many questions. Their only answer is "Obama sucks"...

Yeah Leigh in other words Poo-tattoo is taking over my dialog in this thread. Please direct any more questions to him. He will be answering questions at this point.

If I recall through out Obama's campaign I saying the exact same thing about Obama.
His campaign lies sounded like 2am coke dreams. "Where's the details..."

And look how GREAT he turned out?

Tenouncetrout says

Yeah Leigh in other words Poo-tattoo is taking over my dialog in this thread. Please direct any more questions to him. He will be answering questions at this point.
If I recall through out Obama’s campaign I saying the exact same thing about Obama.
His campaign lies sounded like 2am coke dreams. “Where’s the details…”
And look how GREAT he turned out?

And again. "Obama sucks".

Tenouncetrout says

And look how GREAT he turned out?

While I don't agree with everything he says & does, he's certainly not doing a bad job. He inherited a hell of a mess. It's easy to blame him for everything, tho.

Anyone notice that every controversial bill has his name on it? Obamacare, Obamanomics, etc. He's just a guy who's trying to fix our biggest economic crisis since the Depression. It's short-sighted and detracts from the actual issues.

I doubt anyone here could do better.

Where were they when the prescription drug plan was passed? Why wasn't it called Bushacare? That particular legislation is far, far more wasteful and a far bigger gift to the pharmaceutical companies than the recent health care law. Where were the protests then?

Leigh says

ZippyDDoodah says

And when asked to give specific examples they can’t pull one out of their arse.

I’ll name two big ones, Tea Party types were strongly opposed to TARP and the pork laden stimulus bill. If you will recall, it was Bush, with Obama’s support and teaming up with Nancy Pelosi with Dem majorities who pushed through the TARP bailout, opposed only by House Republicans. Tea Party types didn’t like it a bit. Can you honestly say that you’ve never heard those specific examples coming from the Tea Party? I believe that you’re being dishonest.

I think what has happened is that the TP Movement has been invaded by radicals and uniformed folks egged on by the likes of Glenn Beck. Kind of like how Anarchists take over the spotlight of leftist movements.

You made the claim that Tea Partiers couldn't pull any specific reasons "out of their arse" why they were upset. I pointed out two big reasons, the HC bill is another. You're being incredibly dishonest by claiming that the Tea Partiers are just angry without a reason.

ZippyDDoodah says

You made the claim that Tea Partiers couldn’t pull any specific reasons “out of their arse” why they were upset. I pointed out two big reasons, the HC is another. You’re being incredibly dishonest by claiming that the Tea Partiers are just angry without a reason.

But that's being dishonest because there was more wasteful spending in the previous 8 years of Bush than there was under Obama. Again, where were the tea partiers then? Why all of the sudden once Obama was elected did they start to protest? If it was truly wasteful spending or taxes, then they would have been protesting for 8 years...

Where were they when the prescription drug plan was passed?

We were criticizing Bush for it. Here is a National Review article from 2005 openly slamming Bush for the Prescription drug "fiasco" http://ur.lc/is6 . The big lie from the left is that conservatives/libertarians were "silent" when Bush spent like a drunken sailor (although the largest deficits under the Bush admin were when a Democratic congress was in control of the budget). Obama supporters are simply lying their @sses off when they make the claim that conservatives/libertarians were silent over Bush's spending.. it's the narrative they're pushing, no matter what the actual truth is/was.

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecedented magnitude of it really triggered action.

But that’s being dishonest because there was more wasteful spending in the previous 8 years of Bush than there was under Obama.

Oh really? Buy yourself a clue http://ur.lc/fkx . And that monster 2008 deficit under "Bush", that happened when Democrats were in full control of the House and Senate. Congress controls spending.. You can thank me later for educating you.

I love how so many Tea Party detractors claiming the Tea Partiers are so ill-informed, are themselves the least informed.

ZippyDDoodah says

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecented magnitude of it really triggered action.

lol--is that how they are justifying it? OK--there was some imaginary line that once is was crossed spurred the action?

ZippyDDoodah says

Oh really? Buy yourself a clue http://ur.lc/fkx . And that monster 2008 deficit under “Bush”, that happened when Democrats were in full control of the House and Senate. Congress controls spending.. You can thank me later for educating you.
I love how so many Tea Party detractors claiming the Tea Partiers are so ill-informed, are themselves the least informed.

Wasteful spending and deficits are two very different things Zippy. You can hide a LOT of wasteful spending during a booming economy.... And normal spending will trigger large deficits during a down economy. So, let's try to compare apples to apples.

An important distinction is where the money was spent. Bush wasted untold billions on Iraqi infrastructure. Obama’s spending has been directed at American infrastructure.

Did our defense budget drop under Obama? Or did you simply pull that "fact" out of your arse when it was pointed out that deficit spending under Obama has been MASSIVELY increased over any deficits during the Bush administration?

If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7

you're simply clueless, which explains why you're an Obama defender. On another thread Nomo, you threw out the "fact" that health insurance companies pay out only 17% of premiums on health services. When citation was provided to you which drastically contradicted that claim, you told us that you had a secret report in your office which would prove your point. You were lying then and you're lying again now.

elliemae says

Tenouncetrout says

And look how GREAT he turned out?

While I don’t agree with everything he says & does, he’s certainly not doing a bad job. He inherited a hell of a mess. It’s easy to blame him for everything, tho.
Anyone notice that every controversial bill has his name on it? Obamacare, Obamanomics, etc. He’s just a guy who’s trying to fix our biggest economic crisis since the Depression. It’s short-sighted and detracts from the actual issues.
I doubt anyone here could do better.

Yeah He's doing such a bang up job, and the Tea Party is just a few disenchanted losers spinning their wheels in the park. And Sarah Palin is one Saturday Night Live appearance away from being president.

ZippyDDoodah says

If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7

Citizens against government waste is about as non-partisan as ACORN... Don't worry about the ties to Jack Abramoff--they don't mean anything, right?

tatupu70 says

ZippyDDoodah says

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecented magnitude of it really triggered action.

lol–is that how they are justifying it? OK–there was some imaginary line that once is was crossed spurred the action?

Well, TBH, the $1T/yr deficit line was a pretty big one.

External national debt:

09/30/2005 $4.6T
09/29/2006 $4.8T
09/28/2007 $5.0T
09/02/2008 $5.5T
09/01/2009 $7.5T
04/01/2010 $8.3T

Of course, the 2003-2007 timeframe was juiced with several trillion of unsustainable private borrowing (largely distributed through the housing sector into the wider economy), and the system has been in the process of unwinding that since 1Q07.

1H10 came in at $800B/yr deficit -- that's on top of the $2T jump in FY09. This is quite a spending spree. The $1.8T added deficit over 18 months is enough to give 33M families $3000/mo of cold hard cash. Not that this would be economically viable but it does show the scale of spending involved.

The Tea Party contingent is largely (majority) non-apologetic Bush supporters so I don't feel the need to dig into the mud-slinging (that should be a sufficient indicator), but these are not normal times and what I've seen go down the past 2 years is not exactly encouraging. "I don't have any soluions, but I certainly admire the problem".

ZippyDDoodah says

An important distinction is where the money was spent. Bush wasted untold billions on Iraqi infrastructure. Obama’s spending has been directed at American infrastructure.

Did our defense budget drop under Obama? Or did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse when it was pointed out that deficit spending under Obama has been MASSIVELY increased over any deficits during the Bush administration?
If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7
you’re simply clueless, which explains why you’re an Obama defender. On another thread Nomo, you threw out the “fact” that health insurance companies pay out only 17% of premiums on health services. When citation was provided to you which drastically contradicted that claim, you told us that you had a secret report in your office which would prove your point. You were lying then and you’re lying again now.

I always hate to confuse an idealogue with simple facts but the Iraq war was paid for almost totally with special off budget appropriations not out of the dod budget. So the dod budget wouldn't shrink even if Obama pulled everyone out of Iraq. As per the 2008 budget I don't remember Bush vetoing it, could you remind me about that?

That being said spending has to be reigned in and I don't think Obama is the man to do it. Of course Bush made the term spending like a drunken sailor an embarrasment to any drunken sailor I ever met so I don't know where we go from here.

I always hate to confuse an idealogue with simple facts but the Iraq war was paid for almost totally with special off budget appropriations not out of the dod budget.

I don't understand.. What's your point? The wars are funded by both DoD budget and emergency bills. So what does that have to do with my reply to the absurd claim that Obama was spending on infrastructure rather than on the war when in fact military spending under Obama has INCREASED?

Of course Bush made the term spending like a drunken sailor an embarrasment to any drunken sailor I ever met so I don’t know where we go from here.

If you weren't such an ideologue yourself, you'd admit that if Bush spent like a drunken sailor, then Obama is spending like the entire 7th fleet on a crack binge.. with an unlimited credit card.

Hilarious to see those who are/were quick to blame Bush for deficits (he deserves blame) either excuse Obama's far WORSE deficit spending or they are reluctant to similarly point the fingers of blame at Obama.

The Tea Party is not founded around solid ongoing core, they are the "militant wing of the Republican Party" energized & motivated by Obama. If John McCain were in office I'm quite certain people would be saying "What Party? Tea? Never heard of it." They were little more than a handful of people in unknown fringe group with Revolutionary War costume fetish prior to Obama being elected. Among Teabaggers, there is overwhelming love for Bush despite claims to the contrary.

Teabaggers only claim to be anti-bush because they see what a failure his policies were. Nevertheless, they have the same basic policy objectives:

- Lower taxes
- Don't cut spending on anything that matters
- Spend 20% of GDP on the military

If these people were truly about smaller government, they'd be working their asses off to get Ron Paul or some other rational and intelligent small government type into higher office, and they'd be campaigning against spending rather than taxes.

When I see "End Medicare, End Social Security, End the wars" signs at tea party protests I'll actually start to believe these people. Calling for lower taxes while simultaneously bemoaning the debt is hilarious.

When I see “End Medicare, End Social Security, End the wars” signs at tea party protests I’ll actually start to believe these people. Calling for lower taxes while simultaneously bemoaning the debt is hilarious.

Large majorities of Tea Party protesters would be happy as clams to opt out of Medicare and Social Security.. just as long as the govt pays us back with interest for all the social security taxes and Medicare taxes that we've paid into the system over the years. It's just another Ponzi promotion trying to use class warfare techniques to keep the fraud going. If Social Security and Medicare are such great deals, why are you liberal fascists so afraid to make it voluntary? Here's how we "fix" the broken system - Let people CHOOSE whether or not they want to participate in Social Security, Medicare or Obamacare.. not be forced into a system that is obviously dishonest, wasteful and fraud-ridden inside and out.

FDR promised an immediate windfall of unearned old age benefits in exchange for selling future generations into debt slavery. They bought it hook, line and sinker. It worked so well that every liberal fascist scheme since FDR has been a variation of the same tactic. As a result, the social security system is broke with no plan in place to make it solvent. Medicare is on the fast track to bankruptcy too. Fannie and Freddie are similar govt. scams, promising "affordable" housing to anyone regardless of creditworthiness. Leftists have taken America from being a hard-working, honest-days-work society to a place where scamming the system and playing honest people for fools is the modus operandi for government, big corporations, and politicians. Govt needs to be stripped of many of it's non-constitutional power grabs which are bankrupting and demoralizing this country.. that's what the Tea Party movement is about

As far as I know, the tea party is about fair taxation, pro constitution (freedom/liberty), and government responsibility (no bailouts, military defense, not offense, etc). It's more Libertarian than "Conservative". Now that Faux News has taken over, it's turned into: ni**as/monkeys, white/anglo, anti-immigrant/hispanic, even KKK, etc.

Any time a group of people rise up to protest a corrupt government who have the power to change it, that group is ultimately infiltrated, then discredited through the media.

Better start thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oel9WmYl2wQ

Nomograph says

ZippyDDoodah says
did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse
Yup, it came along when I yanked the anal beads out. God, that felt good.

Nomo:
How many times do I have to ask you to warn me not to take a drink before I read your posts? Once again, snorted pop outta the nostrils.

I'll bet Mrs. Nomo spends a great deal of time laughing her ass off around you.

It’s more Libertarian than “Conservative”. Now that Faux News has taken over, it’s turned into: ni**as/monkeys, white/anglo, anti-immigrant/hispanic, even KKK, etc.

I'd bet a large amount of $$$ that you're a liar talking out of your ass and that you've never been to a Tea Party gathering. What you've written is a smear, nothing more. I live in Houston, TX. I've been to two Tea Party protests with my family, I've walked the crowd and never seen anything even remotely close to something which could be fairly described as "KKK" or "ni**s/monkeys" as you've stated. In fact, with the black headline speakers at the protests, the Tea Partiers would be more accurately characterized as 'nigra lovers'.

housingcasino says

Better start drinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oel9WmYl2wQ

There, I think that's a better prescription. I'm sure the Tea Party folks would be able to follow that direction. I'm not sure that they can comply with your other prescription. We want to be as inclusive as possible, now don't we?

elliemae says

Nomograph says

ZippyDDoodah says

did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse

Yup, it came along when I yanked the anal beads out. God, that felt good.

Nomo:

How many times do I have to ask you to warn me not to take a drink before I read your posts? Once again, snorted pop outta the nostrils.
I’ll bet Mrs. Nomo spends a great deal of time laughing her ass off around you.

Wow, one wonders with curiosity what the home life of the Nomos must be like. One is pulling beads out of his arse and the other is laughing out of her ass until it falls off. So you practice this simultaneously?

Elliemae, didn't anyone ever tell you that liquids should never be anywhere near the computer? And if you have liquid near you computer, vodka is the best, it'll evaporate quickly if spewed out of your mouth. (Well, it's an excuse anyway.)