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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   613,852 views  2,904 comments

by resistance   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

« First        Comments 201 - 240 of 2,904       Last »     Search these comments

201   Shaman   2014 Dec 16, 3:37am  

Dan8267 says

Quigley says

Mankind can comprehend God as much as an ant can understand a computer.

That's a cop out that assumes your idea of god even exists. And it's not a humble position either.

It takes humility to imagine a being greater than yourself. And pride to imagine there is not.

202   Dan8267   2014 Dec 16, 4:09am  

Quigley says

It takes humility to imagine a being greater than yourself. And pride to imagine there is not.

Actually, you are wrong on both counts. It is arrogant to believe there is a god and that he created you in his own image and that he create the entire universe (400 billion stars in a galaxy, trillions of galaxies, tens if not hundreds of billions of light-years of space) just for your pitiful ass.

In contrast, the atheistic view that our existence is an amazing accident, that if trivial events had occurred slightly differently we wouldn't even be here, and that we are not the center of the universe is the humble view.

Those who believe in a god do so for one and only one reason: they want to. All other reasons they give are bullshit. It is not humble to disfigure the universe to conform to your desire. True humility comes by accepting nature for what it is rather than how you want it to be.

Those who do not believe in any god do so because reasoning and evidence overwhelmingly demonstrate that there is no god. It is irrelevant to the atheist what he wants. What he wants has no impact on what is. The universe does not revolve around me. That is true humility.

203   Dan8267   2014 Dec 16, 4:10am  

Strategist says

Pathetic response. As if I care for Gods, Goddesses, and Prophets.

You have just demonstrated exactly why the response is accurate.

204   HydroCabron   2014 Dec 16, 4:16am  

Quigley says

It takes humility to imagine a being greater than yourself. And pride to imagine there is not.

I'm not really seeing the humility in believing one has an immortal soul, which will live forever. It's not necessarily arrogant, but it's far from humble.

I'm also having trouble with the humility of all these religious types telling me how very humble they are. Would you like an awards ceremony, where we honor you with a gold trophy for your humility?

205   resistance   2015 Jan 7, 6:53am  

Sadly, time once again to bump this to the top.

The shootings in Paris underscore that Islam is simply not compatible with free speech or tolerance. Nor was it from Islam's very beginning, when Mohammed had an old man (abu afak) and a pregnant woman (asma bint marwan) murdered for their satirical poems.

A central problem for western democracies is how much to tolerate a violently intolerant religion.

206   resistance   2015 Apr 4, 5:14pm  


Sadly, time once again to bump this to the top.

And again, Muslims deliberately and in cold blood murder random unarmed civilians, this time in Kenya. I think I skipped a few Muslim massacres of innocent unarmed people in the meantime, like the Copts that were beheaded in Algeria for no reason other than being Christian.

207   Strategist   2015 Apr 4, 6:27pm  


I think I skipped a few

A "few" dozen. You need to log on to Patnet more often.

208   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 4, 6:50pm  

George Washington was a terrorist. He received funding from foreign governments (France), attacked Loyalist Civilians who didn't want a revolution (burning their homes, executing them outright, seizing their property), and waged guerilla and later conventional warfare against the Recognized Government.

Anti-Nazi Freedom Fighters is Europe were terrorists. They received funding from foreign governments (the US/OSS, British Secret Service, NKVD), attacked both civilians and government officials of Nazi and Nazi Puppet regimes (executing them, blowing up bridges and railroads and barracks and bus stops), and waged guerilla and in some cases conventional warfare against the Recognized Government.

Forrest killed POWs, killed Civilians, burned homesteads, stole goods and food, committed mass sabotage on railroads, executed armed blacks sympathetic (or believed to be sympathetic) to the US Government. Sherman killed Civilians, burned homesteads, stole goods and food, committed mass sabotage on railroads, executed armed whites sympathetic (or believed to be be sympathetic) to the Confederacy.

The Roundheads and the Cavaliers...
The French Revolutionaries and the Royalists...

Syrian Army and ISIS ...

Saudi National Guard and Shi'a rebels...

209   Strategist   2015 Apr 4, 6:58pm  

thunderlips11 says

George Washington was a terrorist. He received funding from foreign governments (France), attacked Loyalist Civilians who didn't want a revolution (burning their homes, executing them outright, seizing their property), and waged guerilla and later conventional warfare against the Recognized Government.

Anti-Nazi Freedom Fighters is Europe were terrorists. They received funding from foreign governments (the US/OSS, British Secret Service, NKVD), attacked both civilians and government officials of Nazi and Nazi Puppet regimes (executing them, blowing up bridges and railroads and barracks and bus stops), and waged guerilla and in some cases conventional warfare against the Recognized Government.

We can't change history, but we can change the present and influence the future for the better. Lets do it.

210   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 4, 7:02pm  

Strategist says

We can't change history, but we can change the present and influence the future for the better. Lets do it.

I don't give a shit about terrorists, so long as they don't terrorize me. Why the fuck shouldn't Egypt be ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood? It was the people's choice. Mubarak and Sisi only got in due to Military Power.

The MB was already on the way out anyway, they failed to live up to their campaign promises and were polling well below 40%.

On the great scale of shit I give a fuck about, whether Egypt is ruled by Military Thugs or inept Democratically-elected Politicians well at the bottom.

Terrorism is just an excuse for military spending at the expense of roads, research, and deficit spending.

Where are the sanctions against General Sisi for leading an undemocratic coup?

211   Waitup   2015 Apr 5, 4:27am  

thunderlips11 says

Terrorism is just an excuse for military spending at the expense of roads, research, and deficit spending.

My favorite quote for the day!

212   Strategist   2015 Apr 5, 7:02am  

thunderlips11 says

I don't give a shit about terrorists, so long as they don't terrorize me. Why the fuck shouldn't Egypt be ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood? It was the people's choice. Mubarak and Sisi only got in due to Military Power.

Was it the sofa last night? I have never seen you lose your cool.

thunderlips11 says

Terrorism is just an excuse for military spending at the expense of roads, research, and deficit spending.

Islamic terror is an existential threat the world over. To claim it does not affect us is just plain silly. It's not a war we ever wanted, but was thrust upon us. We have no choice but to win it.

213   Patrick   2015 Apr 5, 8:04am  

thunderlips11 says

George Washington was a terrorist.

nope. show me some evidence that washington deliberately murdered random unarmed civilians.

214   mell   2015 Apr 5, 10:23am  


thunderlips11 says

George Washington was a terrorist.

nope. show me some evidence that washington deliberately murdered random unarmed civilians.

Agreed.

thunderlips11 says

On the great scale of shit I give a fuck about, whether Egypt is ruled by Military Thugs or inept Democratically-elected Politicians well at the bottom.

It's not that easy. There's a difference between a dictator ruling their country while leaving other countries alone vs a doctrine that openly propagates colonization and violent massacres around the world on unarmed civilians. My stance is non-interventionist when in doubt, but it is unfortunately another sign of how far the weak, self-flagellating left has conquered western society that countries let people in and pay their welfare that openly propagate the end of democracy and preach and work from the inside towards a takeover of the nanny state that's feeding them so graciously. While I'm no friend of Maggie, I think an iron lady (or iron man) would be a good thing to happen to countries like Britain these days as I have no doubt in my mind that she would have never tolerated such openly expressed violent hatred and open calls to violence in her country.

215   resistance   2015 Apr 5, 11:14am  

mell says

doctrine that openly propagates colonization and violent massacres around the world on unarmed civilians

yes, that is the problem with islam.

Strategist says


I think I skipped a few

A "few" dozen. You need to log on to Patnet more often.

yes, islamic massacres of random innocent people are now pretty much constant. forgot about tunisia already. what did those tourists do that deserved to get them killed?

216   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 12:12pm  


nope. show me some evidence that washington deliberately murdered random unarmed civilians.

Not random. Suspected loyalists.

Washington demanded loyalty oaths to the Congress from the population, refusal to take them was traitorous, traitors got the death penalty (or simply tortured, property seized, beaten, and run out of town). His policy, which he recommended to all the states, and had a friend in Livingston, the Governor of New Jersey:

https://books.google.com/books?id=JrN95xjXKC0C&lpg=PA121&ots=Bp_obNg1VW&dq=george%20washington%20punish%20loyalist&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false

Loss of Property investigated by British Commission (propaganda and some of it exaggerated by Loyalists):
An analysis of 2,063 petitions showed claims for about $35 million real and personal property, $11.77 million in debts and $443,000 in lost incomes. Of 1,680 claims examined, the commission allowed the collection of $9,448,000. (The dollar figures come from a 1904 report from the Bureau of Archives of the Province of Ontario.) By 1788, the commissioners had handled more than 5,000 claims, disallowing about one in five.

Mostly resolved by Canadian Land grants, hence why there is longstanding Anti-Americanism in Canada. Canada got a big boost from Continental Congress terror refugees.

Searchable Loyalist Property Claims database:
http://search.ancestry.ca/search/db.aspx?dbid=3712

Washington to General Putnam, who wanted to put a stop to torture called "Railing" where mobs led by Revolutionaries would seize Loyalists and "suspect Neutrals":


"to discourage such proceedings was to injure the cause of liberty in which they were engaged, and that nobody would attempt it but an enemy of his country."

Source
Washington supported Torture.

What "Riding the Rail" was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_the_rail

217   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 12:21pm  

Why the South finally rose for the Congress: Afraid slaves would rebel due to incentives and arms seizure of British Army:
http://www.blackloyalist.info/event/display/151
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Dunmore%27s_Proclamation

218   indigenous   2015 Apr 5, 12:24pm  

thunderlips11 says

nope. show me some evidence that washington deliberately murdered random unarmed civilians.

Too much deifying in the history books for sure, but Washington pales in comparison to Lincoln.

219   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 12:52pm  

Howe demands Washington stop ordering Property destroyed in NJ, giving examples; Washington says it's part of war, and besides you did it too, also giving examples:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28gw090322%29%29

Sir: I cannot forbear assuring you, that I am some what at a Loss to understand the design of your Letter of the 3d. instant. I can hardly believe you to be serious in remonstrating against a proceedure fully Authorized by the common practice of Armies, countenanced by the Conduct of your own Troops at Trenton, and obviously calculated to answer a purpose very different from that of distressing the Inhabitants and increasing the common calamities incident to a State of War. If this is a consequence of it, it is an unavoidable one, and had no part in producing the Measure.

I flatter myself the Public is sufficiently sensible, that it is not my wish nor aim to distress, but to protect the Inhabitants, and know how to interpret any thing, that with respect to Individuals, may seem to deviate from this end. Nor will they be easily persuaded to consider it, as any injustice or Cruelty to them, that my parties should have rendered useless for a time a few Mills in the Neighbourhood of your Army, which were so situated as to be capable of affording them no inconsiderable Advantages.

I am happy to find you express so much sensibility to the sufferings of the Inhabitants, as it gives room to hope, that those wanton and unnecessary depredations, which have heretofore, in too many instances, marked the conduct of your Army, will be discontinued for the future. The instances I allude to need not be enumerated, your own Memory will suggest them to your imagination, from the destruction of Charles Town in the Massachusetts, down to the More recent burning of Mills, Barnes and Houses at the Head of Elk, and in the vicinity of the Schuylkill.

List of Revolutionary-government Laws issued allowing the confiscation of Loyalist/Neutral property for those who refused to take the Oaths:
http://www.toriesfightingfortheking.com/Punishing.htm
In some states, non-oath takers were "Outlawed", having less rights than a foreigner, their goods could be seized, things due them unpaid, and murdering them not punishable, just like an old Viking outlaw.

Canadian view of the American Revolutionary War, touches on Bushwacking and General Terrorism on both sides:
http://www.uppercanadahistory.ca/uel/uel5.html

Continental Congress, esp. Military Leaders and Washington among them, compelled State Militias and Volunteers to fight long, long past their dates of enlistment. When they tried to petition for back pay, furlough, or simply being allowed to return home per their enlistment contracts, they and especially the leaders among them, often got lined up and shot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompton_Mutiny

First hand account of an execution of American Soldiers for protesting "Stop Loss", Lack of Pay, and General Abuse of their enlistment Terms, by a Continental Army Doctor:
http://www.graphicwitness.com/federalhill/account.html

220   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 1:19pm  

TL;DR

Washington and the Continental Army and Congress did as much or more of the same things they complained the King/British Army did, terrorize the populace, including their own soldiery when it got uppity and insisted on their rights and the sanctity of contract.

221   Dan8267   2015 Apr 5, 5:52pm  

thunderlips11 says

George Washington was a terrorist. He received funding from foreign governments (France), attacked Loyalist Civilians who didn't want a revolution (burning their homes, executing them outright, seizing their property), and waged guerilla and later conventional warfare against the Recognized Government.


nope. show me some evidence that washington deliberately murdered random unarmed civilians.

Actually, thunderlips11 is right on this one. According to the USA Patriot Act, which despite being evil is the law of the land, George Washington would be the quintessential terrorist. Basically, any rebel is a terrorist according to the USA Patriot Act.

Now, does the USA Patriot Act makes sense? No. The hypocrisy of such an act in a nation founded on rebellion is comically ridiculous.

222   HydroCabron   2015 Apr 5, 5:54pm  

Washington was also an anti-colonialist - unacceptable in today's GOP.

At the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, he thought the Second Amendment was silly, and need not be included in the Bill of Rights.

223   resistance   2015 Apr 5, 6:06pm  

Dan8267 says

Actually, thunderlips11 is right on this one. According to the USA Patriot Act, which despite being evil is the law of the land, George Washington would be the quintessential terrorist.

no, he's not right.

we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

only islam does that.

and it does it over and over and over and over...

224   Strategist   2015 Apr 5, 6:36pm  

Dan8267 says

Now, does the USA Patriot Act makes sense? No. The hypocrisy of such an act in a nation founded on rebellion is comically ridiculous.

The purpose of the Patriot Act is to protect us. Let the government do it's job.

225   Strategist   2015 Apr 5, 6:39pm  


Dan8267 says

Actually, thunderlips11 is right on this one. According to the USA Patriot Act, which despite being evil is the law of the land, George Washington would be the quintessential terrorist.

no, he's not right.

we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

only islam does that.

and it does it over and over and over and over...

And it will never stop. Which is why we need to snuff out it's ability to hurt others.

226   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 6:51pm  


we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

Dresden (a city of no military significance, at the tail end of the War), Wounded Knee, Sherman's March to the Sea, N. Bedford Forrest all day and night long, Border Ruffians and Freestaters, No Gun Ri, and shit nobody's heard of like the Samar "Howling Wilderness" Campaign:

I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn; the more you kill and burn, the better it will please me... The interior of Samar must be made a howling wilderness...


— General Jacob H. Smith, US Army in the "Liberated" Philippines. Promoted by Taft, praised by the New York Times.

I leave out Hiroshima, because I DO believe it was necessary to end the war with less violence and killing than an invasion of Japan would require.

Nasty Shit that always happens with soldiers I leave out, for instance: French WW2 archives finally unsealed: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-some-liberators-were-criminals/
* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8084210.stm

Americans are less bad than most - at least those drafted from the general population - but nasty shit always happens. It's the planned actions that count. Colin Powell made his career on covering up crimes in Vietnam, making himself a known "Yes-man", probably why he was picked to lead with the Yellowcake bullshit.

227   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 5, 7:13pm  

Note to self: Don't stick around when South Korean soldiers are nearby. Check out their list of war crimes since 1950. The Capital Division alone is accused of multiple incidents worse than My Lai, and it was the only division in Vietnam from South Korea (relative to divisions of US Army and Marines).

228   Strategist   2015 Apr 5, 7:21pm  

thunderlips11 says


we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

Dresden (a city of no military significance, at the tail end of the War), Wounded Knee, Sherman's March to the Sea, N. Bedford Forrest all day and night long, Border Ruffians and Freestaters, No Gun Ri, and shit nobody's heard of like the Samar "Howling Wilderness" Campaign:

Thunder, all of mankind was barbaric at one time or other. Let's not excuse this same behavior in today's world, let's just stop it. We as humans want nothing more than peace, prosperity and progress, and the only way to achieve that is through education and democracy. Lets go for that.

229   bob2356   2015 Apr 5, 10:20pm  


no, he's not right.

we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

only islam does that.

and it does it over and over and over and over...

No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.

230   curious2   2015 Apr 5, 11:23pm  

bob2356 says


no, he's not right.

we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

only islam does that.

and it does it over and over and over and over...

No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia [sic], Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.

Violence happens in many places for many reasons, but Islam exalts violence to a level unrivaled in the modern world. Sharia requires murdering apostates and blasphemers, and huge numbers of Muslims around the world demand that must be imposed literally. They murder their own children, and call it honor. Islam is the last remaining religion to practice child sacrifice, and by some projections it will become the world's most populous religion, and these two facts are connected: child sacrifice wreaks such primal terror that none dare stand against it, and once they have gone to that extent, the mind can never consider that sacrifice to have been in vain. If you look at what happened in Gaza, consistently Hamas sacrificed children, for example by firing rockets from school zones and having all the schoolchildren stand outside on schoolyard balconies watching the rockets and awaiting return fire. It is the only religion where large numbers of people resort to violence over a cartoon - you could call the actual murderers isolated examples, but consider also the huge crowds demanding violent revenge and killing whoever among them shows insufficient extremism. In our "ally" Pakistan, specifically in the largest province (Punjab, population 100 million), a woman was going to be executed for "blasphemy;" when the Governor said she should be spared and not killed, the Governor of Punjab was assassinated by one of his own guards, and when the assassins (which itself is an Arab Muslim word, btw) were arrested, huge crowds demanded their release because they had only followed Sharia, and the crowds demanded that Sharia must be followed. Wherever Islam becomes the majority religion, the entire population suffer because of it. The GDP of the entire Muslim world adds up to less than Germany, and the Arab Muslim world adds up to less than Spain. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the liberal democracies that have embraced Muslim immigration, as Muslims become a larger voting bloc demanding policies more favorable to Islam, and ultimately Sharia.

231   Y   2015 Apr 6, 1:24am  

Extremely damning evidence...

curious2 says

It will be very interesting to see what happens to the liberal democracies that have embraced Muslim immigration, as Muslims become a larger voting bloc demanding policies more favorable to Islam, and ultimately Sharia.

232   bob2356   2015 Apr 6, 6:01am  

curious2 says

Violence happens in many places for many reasons, but Islam exalts violence to a level unrivaled in the modern world.

Islam doesn't exalt violence. The handful of people who control all the wealth in the muslim world exalt violence to keep the poverty stricken at bay. The US/Europe have aided and abetted this for a long time so the christian world is far from blameless.

233   resistance   2015 Apr 6, 6:52am  

bob2356 says

Islam doesn't exalt violence.

please read the original post.

234   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 9:42am  


no, he's not right.

we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.

only islam does that.

and it does it over and over and over and over...

I certainly agree that the above should be the definition of terrorist. I was just pointing out that by our screwed up laws today, the founding fathers would most certainly be considered terrorists.

As for religions that murder unarmed, innocent civilians, yes, Islamic religions are the only ones that does that on a mass scale today. Of course, Christian history is full of such atrocities. The only reason that Christianity does not do that today is that the power of the Christian religions has been almost eliminated in western civilization by atheists, agnostics, naturalists, secularists, and other rationalists. It took 400 years (from the latest 1500s to the start of the 20th century) to have a reasonable separation of church and state in western civilization. It has taken an additional 100 years to further reduce the corrupting power of religion on the state to the level we enjoy today, and yet there are still egregious violations of church and state in our society. Nevertheless, without the enormous effort to curtain the power of religions, Christianity and western civilization would look exactly like the Middle East, which is simply Medieval Europe in modern times.

Make no mistake, it's not the arbitrary and meaningless mythology of Islam that is to blame, but the fact that power is based on superstitious beliefs in the first place. Any mythology, any holy book, any god is a bad one. The only difference between Islam, Christianity, and any religion or family of religions is how much power the people give to it. The more power a religion has, the more evil it does. History has borne this out time and time again.

On the bright side, we now have a proven solution to the problem of Islam. It's the exact same solution as the one to the problem of Christianity. The religions and superstitions must be weakened and destroyed by scientific education, rational thinking, and the open exchange of ideas that are offensive to the religions. Introduce drugs, sex, and science to the Middle East, educate the women and give them the birth control pill, and get everyone on the Internet and the vile culture of Middle Eastern Islam will crumble for the exact same reasons that Christian culture has crumbled in the west.

Granted, we still will have a long way to go to eliminate religion and its corrupting effects, but the Middle East could be turned into a secular culture within our lifetimes using this approach. Of course, it helps to eliminate the effects of religion on our own society, so that we can eliminate those effects in other societies.

235   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 6, 9:49am  

Dan8267 says

Christianity and western civilization would look exactly like the Middle East, which is simply Medieval Europe in modern times.

This.
Dan8267 says

Granted, we still will have a long way to go to eliminate religion and its corrupting effects, but the Middle East could be turned into a secular culture within our lifetimes using this approach. Of course, it helps to eliminate the effects of religion on our own society, so that we can eliminate those effects in other societies.

And this.

Women in the middle ages were sent to the Pillory or worse for adultery. Midwives who failed to deliver babies got accused of Witchcraft and Learned Men, Sorcery. This kind of humiliation and torture, including the stocks, continued for centuries. Scarlet Letter?

Not to mention the witch hunts. (Funny thing about witchhunts, in Scandinavia it was a near even number of Witches AND Male Warlocks. Those Vikings, so into equality)

236   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 9:53am  

bob2356 says

Islam doesn't exalt violence.

The statement that a religion doesn't promote violence is a common cop-out and lie. Just about every religion that has every existed has promoted violence under the demand of its god(s). All of the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are no exceptions. Some of the practitioners will cherry pick their holy books for peaceful messages while others will cherry pick for the promotion of violence, slavery, rape, or other vile acts. But every religion does engage in the promotion of violence when it suits its needs.

There are three positions that people take on this issue. One says don't blame all of Islam for the few who act violently. While somewhat fair, this statement ignores the fact that hundreds of millions of Muslims in the Middle East either actively engage in violence or support those who do. The second position is "Islam is evil, but other religions are not.". This position is also faulty because throughout history just about all religions have been violent and evil. The rare exceptions are religions that lacked any power, and had they gotten power, they would have become violent to gain more power.

The final position is that all power structures based on mythology, i.e. religions, are bad because basing power on lies inevitably causes corruption, violence, suppression, and destruction. Based on this position, the only difference between Islam and other families of religions is that Islam hasn't been neutered yet. We need to neuter Islam. We should also strive to eliminate all religion form our society by challenging their lies and showing how science answers all the questions that religion has failed to answer.

The best society, especially in a democracy or a republic, is one in which the population is educated and rational, and these two things are mutually exclusive with any religion.

237   socal2   2015 Apr 6, 9:56am  

bob2356 says

No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.

I do think ISIS and other Muslim extremists are unique in that they do "exalt violence" with their various jihadi snuff videos of beheadings and burning prisoners alive to draw recruits from around the world.

Your list above (and even the Nazis) at least tried to hide their genocidal brutality from the press and the rest of the world.

Also, most of your list above are generally local tribal/ethnic disputes. We don't see these groups recruiting people across the world using a religious ideology to commit terrorism in Europe or North America to further their cause.

238   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 9:56am  

thunderlips11 says

Women in the middle ages were sent to the Pillory or worse for adultery. Midwives who failed to deliver babies got accused of Witchcraft and Learned Men, Sorcery. This kind of humiliation and torture, including the stocks, continued for centuries. Scarlet Letter?

Not to mention the witch hunts.

Precisely, and as Russia has demonstrated, it is possible for a secular society to rapidly deteriorate into a religious society. When this happens rights are destroyed and life becomes less valued.

Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that our nation could descend into a second dark ages if we let religion, especially Christianity, loose. Just like we can eliminate the vile theocratic culture of the Middle East in one lifetime, we could also lose our society to a theocracy in a single lifetime.

239   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 6, 10:00am  

bob2356 says

No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.

Quick thought: When the IRA was blowing up buses and public places all over the UK and Eire in the 1980s, along with ETA (Basque Independence Terrorists) how come nobody blamed Catholicism?

(Another Thought: How come Europe and the UK didn't see a need for the Patriot Act style laws we have today, even though those attacks were far more frequent and better organized and pound for pound, more deadly?)

240   socal2   2015 Apr 6, 10:06am  

Dan8267 says

All of the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are no exceptions. Some of the practitioners will cherry pick their holy books for peaceful messages while others will cherry pick for the promotion of violence, slavery, rape, or other vile acts.

Atheists are the same way in how they ignore or cherry-pick the hundreds of millions killed in the last century by Communism. The Commies purposefully destroyed all of the religious communities and leadership so that there could be no outside moral critics of their rule.

The God-less Commies in 5 short decades in the 20th century killed hundreds of millions of human beings - so they shouldn't be too smug when criticizing the actions of ancient civilizations from the Bronze Age.

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