patrick.net

indigenous says

People think he was great because he "brought us out of the depression", in actual fact he caused it.

Let me see, FDR was elected in 1932 and you think he CAUSED the depression that started in 1929?

justme says

Let me see, FDR was elected in 1932 and you think he CAUSED the depression that started in 1929?

Hoover got it started (things like the Smoot Hawley Act), in fact many of the policies that FDR implemented were a continuation of Hoover's.

The stuff I indicated above were what FDR did.

PCGyver says

Your mistake is to think that your party is better than the other. Both parties don't give two craps about you captain. It wasn't just the Dems that let TARP happen it was both parties.

That's been the biggest problem with this board. Just because I'm riling against Obama, then I must be for the other guys. And that is not the truth.
The Florida Governors race is between two ex-Republican Governors.
And that scares the shit out of me. Rick Scott has already done enough to screw this state, and much of what Charlie Christ did to screw this state, Scott used as a framework to do further damage. He didn't undo, fix, or just make things better or easier in this State. He just contributed to its further destruction.

But all of this who started what crap is not what this thread is about.

It's about everyone should be demanding a raise, just like that Wells Fargo employee did the other day. We all should NOT be sitting on our Asses just letting the LIberals narrate the issue to frame their political exploits.

"Oh you poor things, your wretches who work grueling 17 hour long weeks. They need $15.00 an hour, and more food stamps, inequality and all that. Now be sure to vote for hope and change."

The last time we left change up to them, this is the Ass fucking we got.

We all need to be stepping up to this argument.
This is not just a Shanaynay, and Rosa issue. It's a every damn body issue.
It's not a 1% issue vs the 99% issues. We're doing it to our selves.
We're letting companies squeeze profits and letting their price cuts telegraph out to us, to where we are affected by them. We tolerate it for two reasons. Cheap crap, and elusive 401K profits.

My guess if we do ask for more money, we'll end up getting our moneys worth in the goods we buy. Because better quality will be expected out of everyone. Profits wont be as great, so companies will start pulling back and becoming private endeavors again. And not a mob rule investors mentality. Where whole industries are made and destroyed on the whims of investors.

Banks will have to start making money the old fashioned way, by charging and paying interest.

And the only remedy for out of control inflation is just out of control wages.
Percentages will always be percentages. And right now, we're giving too much back to the corporations.

YES, FUCK YES especially Warren Buffets corporations, and even Starbucks, all of them. Not the fictitious invisible 1%. WE ARE THE 1%.

You better start getting vocal NOW, or you're just going be allowing the Right and Left do your thinking for you. And for now they want your money, not just the part timers, minimum wage earners money. Everyones money, they are fucking with all of our money. Shit they are counting that shit, and considering it when they give reports and pay the bills.

CaptainShuddup says

YES, FUCK YES especially Warren Buffets corporations

Yep, esp. esp. Buffet's corporations

This also figures into inflation/deflation

I would also say as with Darlag's post about the cost of a shipping container. Which is a manifestation of a huge over capacity in China. I read somewhere that China produced more cement in 2011-2012 than the US in the entire 20th century.

Point is the Fed is trying to push the economy with a rope.

CaptainShuddup says

FOOD, a Roof, and Health is NOT a Luxury!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People eat out more, eat more pre-packaged food, live in larger houses with more stuff, and consume more health care than at any previous time.

Eating at restaurants and eating convenience foods is a luxury. Living in a big house with a bathroom per person is a luxury. I'm all for a single payer health care system, so I'm with you there.

My point is that people tend to spend way beyond their means these days, because money is cheap and everybody else is doing it. They can ask for a raise and try to make more money, but the one thing that is in their immediate control is what they spend.

You can look back at the 1950s and assume everything was better back then, but meanwhile people are spending money on all sorts of things that just weren't available back then.

You just described why Tilapia is over $6.99 a lb, instead of the $1.99 lb what it was intended for.
You described why Chicken wings are the new Prime Rib, when it used to be meat that was added to making stock.

People aren't spending more on food, they are being forced to spend more for the food they get. Stop it.

CaptainShuddup says

We need Wage inflation not voting on Minimum wage to be a certain figure.

We need across the board wage inflation.

I'd vote for that with my pocketbook.

But business knows how to reduce wages, it's easy. And I don't think wage inflation will occur any time soon, not with liberals only pushing for minimum wage. Big business knows that all they need to do is Just offshore, or train cheap labor. They haven't been able yet to reduce wages of professionals, because their work isn't something they can train day laborer in a week for. But who knows what the future holds.

Well then for every job outsourcing loses, we need to up the Tariffs to cover that lost from our economy. Lose a $25K job, tariffs across the board raise accordingly. Lose 2 $25K jobs, and it starts getting expensive, for those companies to import that cheap labor crap back into the states. The extra tariffs should go to funding, training and grants for small business how wish to create onshore jobs.

Or the investors can stop squeezing everyone else, and just be satisfied with enough profits instead of all of the profits.

Progressive protectionism is coming whether the Lefties and Commies and the Rightwing pig tanks like it or not.

CaptainShuddup says

e need to up the Tariffs to cover that lost from our economy.

Tariffs are not a good idea cuz they reciprocate.

Times are a changing as the article on China's labor force striking indicates. China has to stimulate their domestic markets or they are toast.

What's wrong with the Capt'n, he's not an unhinged neoliberal who thinks low wages, unemployment, and free-trade-at-any-hazard are "Positive Goods"

CaptainShuddup says

Prices aren't going to go down, it's time everyone in America walks off their job to send a message. Not just McDonald's workers, but everyone.

I'd love to see minimum wage workers go on strike, and demand tariffs return and jobs be protected.

However the very people who need it worst, are the most thoroughly programmed. The 1% have so firmly entrenched the notion that collective action like strikes is COMMUNISM, that you have a steep uphill slog convincing anyone to join you. They don't need Pinkertons anymore to break pesky union skulls, they just brainwashed the people who need them to reject them.

See the Corporations forming all kinds of collectives like Chamber of Commerce etc. that is perfectly OK for them to have instruments to affect policy that affects workers.

Perhaps if I it were cast as being like gun control it'd make more sense to Southerners. ConglomCo want's all the machine guns in their armory, they don't want you to even have a slingshot.

CaptainShuddup says

Well then for every job outsourcing loses, we need to up the Tariffs to cover that lost from our economy. Lose a $25K job, tariffs across the board raise accordingly

I like that idea. I thought of that a while ago, many folks have. It won't happen as long as wall street and profit margins are what controls the pay and jobs. My feeling is that "we the people" have very little say in this matter.

The day when the tea party and occupy wall street realize they are two sides of the same coin, shit is gonna happen. It appears that day is not too far away.

YesYNot says

Culturally, people were less interested in living on credit in the past. Part of this is due to lower interest rates today that make borrowing more attractive

That's the core part of the problem. The cheap credit can push down the wage increase and keep the consumption party going. In fact, this is true in a big way in all western countries except Germany.

If raising minimum wage solves the debt problem, the Denmark would have the least amount the household debt. The opposite is true. Denmark has the highest minimum wage as well as the largest household debt in the world. Around 57% of the mortgages there are interest-only.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c0a5a76-d202-11e3-8ff4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3FtAPfjDG

CaptainShuddup says

There's no particular group that deserves more money while everyone else doesn't.

That's where the liberals will disagree with you.

gsr says

That's the core part of the problem. The cheap credit can push down the wage increase and keep the consumption party going. In fact, this is true in a big way in all western countries except Germany.

People act like CITIZENS (never say consumers) are degenerates and the one who started the debt party. I disagree. The FIRE industry needed this debt orgy to keep their profits marching higher. So they cooked up ways to sell it to the public. Exactly like DeBeers and "a diamond is forever" they've seduced us all with the idea that a credit score is how you measure your status as a citizen. I remember in the 80's how all the credit card companies were outside our student center trying to sign kids up for cards. They were perfectly willing to "help" the marginal, oh you are a foreigner just claim your BF/GF is your "cousin" that we can list on the form>

CaptainShuddup says

People aren't spending more on food, they are being forced to spend more for the food they get. Stop it.

Over here, restaurants are crowded, roads are jam-packed. Most people seem to be living high on the hog. They are not just barely getting by. But yes, prices are up.

CaptainShuddup says

I am now starting to realize that I have been looking at this wrong.

It is time for $20.00 minimum wage. And your average middle class blue collar jobs should be around $120K a year.

Professionals should start at $250K or even more.

Then an only then would the standard of living be back to anywhere like it was in 1999.

That's probably what US wages would be if we had tariffs.

CaptainShuddup says

You just described why Tilapia is over $6.99 a lb, instead of the $1.99 lb what it was intended for.

You described why Chicken wings are the new Prime Rib, when it used to be meat that was added to making stock.

Jeez, Capt - where the heck are you shopping? Eggs, large brown, all natural, cage free, $1.87 and on special $1.50. If I really wanted to go cheap, 'regular' eggs, where I don't give a darn about the chickens is from .87 to $1.15 (depending on the week). Jumbo pack sirloin pork chops, $1.00 a lb. Ground turkey, $1.00 a lb. Fresh corn, 3 for $1.00 Whole 'natural' no hormones, cage free chickens, $1.67 a pound. And those are the normal stores not some place like Aldi (which I would go to if I were REALLY trying to pinch pennies). Gasoline, I saw the other day, down to $2.84 a gallon. My electricity is locked in at under 10 cents a kilowatt (locked in contract for 2 years). Dish TV is just over $20 a month and ATT internet at $36 a month.

gsr says

Over here, restaurants are crowded, roads are jam-packed. Most people seem to be living high on the hog. They are not just barely getting by. But yes, prices are up.

So I've heard that the Seattle area (and yes I consider Issaquah to be within Seattles's area - I lived in the Pacific Northwest for over 50 years so I'm pretty familiar with the area) is doing well. Don't exactly know why, it's the same down here in the Houston area. It's crazy to try to go out to eat on a Friday night, unless you get there before 5:00PM you're pretty much waiting in line. The roads ... well, let's say Houston has a reputation for crowded roads for a reason. Just because a road has three lanes going each way, plus a turn lane ... doesn't mean it can't/won't be crowded (and that is on a highway, our freeways are bigger).

Vicente says

gsr says

That's the core part of the problem. The cheap credit can push down the wage increase and keep the consumption party going. In fact, this is true in a big way in all western countries except Germany.

People act like CITIZENS (never say consumers) are degenerates and the one who started the debt party. I disagree. The FIRE industry needed this debt orgy to keep their profits marching higher. So they cooked up ways to sell it to the public. Exactly like DeBeers and "a diamond is forever" they've seduced us all with the idea that a credit score is how you measure your status as a citizen. I remember in the 80's how all the credit card companies were outside our student center trying to sign kids up for cards. They were perfectly willing to "help" the marginal, oh you are a foreigner just claim your BF/GF is your "cousin" that we can list on the form>

Yeah but it's up to the people to refuse the debtoholic circle-jerk. You look at Germany, they are now being attacked for taking care of their deficit instead of going on a Krugmanite crony spending spree - just because their economy has contracted after expanding for quite a while.. The problem is that if people would return to sound capital formation and not overspend we will be in for an immediate sharp correction and price drops which would be better for the economy in the long-term, but would have the pundits screaming for more stimulus instantly.

mell says

Yeah but it's up to the people to refuse the debtoholic circle-jerk. You look at Germany, they are now being attacked for taking care of their deficit instead of going on a Krugmanite crony spending spree - just because their economy has contracted after expanding for quite a while.. The problem is that if people would return to sound capital formation and not overspend we will be in for an immediate sharp correction and price drops which would be better for the economy in the long-term, but would have the pundits screaming for more stimulus instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxk9PW83VCY

Hello in there McFly!

It isn't in the fucking interest of the FIRE industry for you to do that. Their media and paid stooges will lambast you for unpatriotic terrorist if you say otherwise.

zzyzzx says

That's where the liberals will disagree with you.

But, but, but just because he was offered (like everyone under the age of 18 in this country) a free education, it don't mean squat (no, we won't factor in that he didn't do his homework, or skipped school over 50% of the time).

Just because with no skills, he still scored a job at WalMart making $10 an hour and then got fired because half the time he didn't show up for work, the other half the time when he was at work, he was on his cell phone. Doesn't mean squat.

Just because he's in Jail for trying to rob the local convenience store. Doesn't mean squat.

Just cause he's got three babies with three different women and can't pay child support on or for any of them. Doesn't mean squat.

Now what part of he deserves more don't you understand???

gsr says

CaptainShuddup says

People aren't spending more on food, they are being forced to spend more for the food they get. Stop it.

Over here, restaurants are crowded, roads are jam-packed. Most people seem to be living high on the hog. They are not just barely getting by. But yes, prices are up.

Well over here everybody has the latest web-phone the minute it is released, and the required contract which screws them most. Out of 10 people, 8 drive a significantly more expensive car then me while 8 out of 10 make significantly less), they have multi-million mortgages, TVs so big they don't fit through any door or window anymore, and they don't now how to cook or clean their places themselves. Most of them are saddled with debt and don't even have kids yet, all that on the latest social media hype tech job which is as safe and sound as the Fed's trillion dollar balance sheet. Meanwhile Russia is paying down its debt, Germany is fighting the EU to do so as well, and China and India keep importing gold. Good times! ;)

YesYNot says

People eat out more, eat more pre-packaged food, live in larger houses with more stuff, and consume more health care than at any previous time.

Who are these 'people' of which you speak? I don't/won't buy pre-packed food. Unless you are talking about the fact that they butchered the pig down to sizes that I can buy and carry home. Nope, no Stoffers or Banquet frozen dinners for this guy (I do buy large packs of oatmeal, sugar, meat and reduce it to things in the freezer, to sizes that I will consume in one or two meals). Health care? I don't LIKE the doctor, I go in for a checkup once a year because it keeps my insurance premiums low. But if I show up at the doctor's, I'm in serious world of hurt. Generally see him once a year, and I wouldn't do that if I didn't have to. Big house? Somewhat guilty, but about to change seeing as how I'm taking in a friend and his wife who have fallen on hard times. Four people, 2 1/2 bathrooms.

YesYNot says

My point is that people tend to spend way beyond their means these days

Again, who are these 'people' that you talk of?? I have one credit card that I'm carrying a balance on and trying to pay off and one car loan that has zero interest and I'm paying off faster than the minimum payment (by about double). My house payment on a 2400 square foot house (including insurance and taxes) is $1200 a month. About what a 1200 square foot apartment would rent for down here. Who are these 'people' that you keep speaking of??

Vicente says

mell says

Yeah but it's up to the people to refuse the debtoholic circle-jerk. You look at Germany, they are now being attacked for taking care of their deficit instead of going on a Krugmanite crony spending spree - just because their economy has contracted after expanding for quite a while.. The problem is that if people would return to sound capital formation and not overspend we will be in for an immediate sharp correction and price drops which would be better for the economy in the long-term, but would have the pundits screaming for more stimulus instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxk9PW83VCY

Hello in there McFly!

It isn't in the fucking interest of the FIRE industry for you to do that. Their media and paid stooges will lambast you for unpatriotic terrorist if you say otherwise.

Agreed, but you're still free to make your choice. Once they imprison you for not shopping, we can concede defeat. Kill your TV. I'd like to see a silent revolution by refusing to consume and rejecting debt-deals requiring forward promise of labor, incl. anything that gives a middle-men an immediate direct cut of a pie that has not been paid off yet. For example, people could switch to using real estate lawyers paid on an hourly salary when selling/buying houses, and only buy cars w cash and only participate in month-to-month contracts. For the few bugger or unexpected things where loans are still needed. limit them to 5-10 years. The possibilities are endless.

mmmarvel says

Health care? I don't LIKE the doctor, I go in for a checkup once a year because it keeps my insurance premiums low. But if I show up at the doctor's, I'm in serious world of hurt.

Brother's best friend, kept making excuses not to go the doctor. He's a rugged type. Oh if only he had done something about it sooner before he was in a "world of hurt". Now he's dying of cancer.

mell says

Kill your TV. I'd like to see a silent revolution by refusing to consume and rejecting debt-deals requiring forward promise of labor, incl. anything that gives a middle-men an immediate direct cut of a pie that has not been paid off yet.

IOW quit eating the seed corn.

A lot of people's spending habits are created by the money supply created by the state. Inflation has a message of spend. China has seen to it through devaluation of the Yuan (lowering the purchasing power of the Yuan) that the message is save. Because the US has allowed mercantilism along with inflation since the 70s the message is spend.

Vicente says

Brother's best friend, kept making excuses not to go the doctor. He's a rugged type. Oh if only he had done something about it sooner before he was in a "world of hurt". Now he's dying of cancer.

But see, I'm okay with dying. I'd rather pass than have bits and pieces of me chopped away with a limited and not-too-happy of a life. I'm also not impressed with the way the world (and this country) are going, so yeah, I'm okay with dying.

mmmarvel says

But see, I'm okay with dying. I'd rather pass than have bits and pieces of me chopped away with a limited and not-too-happy of a life. I'm also not impressed with the way the world (and this country) are going, so yeah, I'm okay with dying.

I can't say I disagree with that. But for me, I'm not impressed with the way this country is going. There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids. I would have ditched this third world Ebola infested shit hole about 6 years ago.

CaptainShuddup says

There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids.

They have to agree to take you. Good luck with that.

indigenous says

Inflation has a message of spend.

And we haven't had much of it.

indigenous says

Because the US has allowed mercantilism along with inflation since the 70s the message is spend.

Right, we aren't unilaterally cutting tariffs and the whole paradigm of the past 30-40 years is to create new trade barriers.

mmmarvel says

Again, who are these 'people' that you talk of?? I have one credit card that I'm carrying

Americans spend on average $2500 per year eating out.
https://gma.yahoo.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-spend-eating-out-at-restaurants--.html
Of this $1000 is for lunch.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/09/25/lunchtime-americans-spend-nearly-1k-annually-eating-out-for-lunch/

For a 4 person family, this is $10K. I'm sure that Parents with children spend less per person on average, and married with no kids spend more than their share. So, regardless of your personal habits, people spend quite a lot on average, and this is reflected by the shear number of restaurants around. The landscape was very different 10, 20, 30, or 60 years ago, and there were much fewer restaurants.

When you go to the grocery store, just look at what other people are buying. I do, and there are tons of pre-made items going into carts. Most of these have >50% mark-up.

So, the answer to your question, 'these people' whom you ask about are the majority of other people in this country.

bob2356 says

They have to agree to take you. Good luck with that.

Like we did?

CaptainShuddup says

I can't say I disagree with that. But for me, I'm not impressed with the way this country is going. There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids.

Outside of living in Rin's world of hookers and what-not (although not in Canada) not sure I'd want to take a family to any other country. Heck, the wife has zero desire (as do I) to even visit other countries. Again, if I was living as Rin attests to do, then ... but I'm too old for that, too broke for that and too old for that.

indigenous says

Tariffs are not a good idea cuz they reciprocate.

The problem with unilaterally lowering tariffs is that they are not reciprocated.

"Dumb Americans tricked by wealthy outsourcers? Great! No negotiations, so we'll enjoy the minimal tariff on cars we export to them - while continuing to tariff American import at 40%."