patrick.net

It's not about worthwhile freeness of speech but rather the #'s.
Patrick may not want to put another stab wound in free speech but damn
if he could just get a few more #'s this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Very pathetic....

The number of readers does seem to suffer when the forum degenerates into ad hominem attacks with little real discussion going on.

What is the value of attacking a person rather than their point? How does that help us understand or resolve any issue?

OK, there's a little bit of entertainment value in attacking a person, but there seems to be a big cost as well.

rando says

The number of readers does seem to suffer when the forum degenerates into ad hominem attacks with little real discussion going on.

What is the value of attacking a person rather than their point? How does that help us understand or resolve any issue?

OK, there's a little bit of entertainment value in attacking a person, but there seems to be a big cost as well.

Don't bother asking "these people " the tough questions, there's one thing that's certain: they will never answer them because the answer destroys their "point"

Yes...

errc says

"these people "

lol

I still think my proposed solution is the simplest. One thread per person per day. Maybe also 20 posts/comments per person per day? We just need to throttle the drivel, not police every comment. It is just too much work, not free speech, and can be abused.

Just ask the military who are in the ground in part to protect free speech if they think you should CENSOR a
website who claims to be a Free Speech Forum.

So then Graybox, how can Patrick make the homepage capture (and retain) more new users?

errc says

So then Graybox, how can Patrick make the homepage capture (and retain) more new users?

I don't know plain and simple, but I do believe it's not by censoring a site that claims to be a free speech advocate.

Graybox says

censoring a site that claims to be a free speech advocate

www.youtube.com/embed/T3lBaW8VUGQ

Graybox says

You should go back and read your own

And we are learning volumes about you from these current posts. lol

Why isn't Spam all over PNet? FREE SPEECH! OMG! Patrick let the spam in!

LET THE SPAM INNNNNnnnnnnnnn!

Either Patrick has the balls to keep this a Free Speech forum or he don't...
Very simple....

Rew says

And we are learning volumes about you from these current posts. lol

You don't come close to understanding...

Graybox says

You don't come close to understanding...

I tried to come close to understanding once. Restraining order.

Ironman says

Why is it this group became such Special Snowflakes and carry on like little children, even though they are on a "FREE SPEECH" forum??

You can't make this shit up.

They bitch but by far and large they are the first to insult....

None of them self righteous mother fuckers can throw the 1st stone.

I would love to see "Free Speech Forum" loud and clear at the top and Patrick to honor
that phrase and forget about the censorship for ### bull shit.....

OK, most users will now see an "ad hominem" link after "dislike".

To see and use the link, you need to have a certain minimal reputation on the forum as not a new user and someone with likes.

The rules apply equally to everyone, including myself.

If you have to shit on someone personally, please do it in https://patrick.net/1302979/2017-02-14-thunderdome-thread-insult-other-patrick-net-users-with-impunity-here

rando says

To see and use the link, you need to have a certain minimal reputation on the forum as not a new user and someone with likes.

And that was the day Patrick armed the community of irrational knuckle draggers with the ability to self police. Since no quality or civility really existed many used their new found powers in vengeance. PNet became a blank page, for one to stare at, and contemplate one's life. (Or at least how they waste time on the internet.)

Seriously, I just made a post that said "you racists f* ..." disappear. Where did it go? LOL.

Ironman says

rando says

OK, most users will now see an "ad hominem" link after "dislike".

Catering to the "minority" instead of the "majority" again.

Got to have them ###'s at all cost.... Even Freedom of speech and it won't help a bit.
Take down the "Free Speech Forum" text....

You're still free to make any point you want. Even extremely politically incorrect points.

You're even free to directly insult other users in the thunderdome thread. Or threads. Hell, new rule: any post with "thunderdome" in the title will allow direct insults.

But you're right, now there is a restriction on attacking the person instead of the point in all other threads. So you're slightly less free here.

It seems like a valid tradeoff, hopefully will contribute to higher-quality discussion, and more users, yes.

rando says

A native descent muslim? What did you shoot forth from the prophet himself? LOL

Can you contest a post flagged as ad-hom?
Some Pnet users are about to test you on this. (see vocal opponents above, and "the usual suspects" ... as ... lol ... the usual suspects.)

Rew says

Seriously, I just made a post that said "you racists f* ..." disappear. Where did it go? LOL.

It went into moderation, I got notified, decided that yes "you racist fuck" is in fact attacking the person and not the point, and I deleted it.

If it were not a true ad hominem attack, I'd approve the comment and it would go right back where it was. That would reduce your credibility in the future.

Rew says

Can you contest a post flagged as ad-hom?

No need. I'll see it in the moderation queue, and as the local emperor-god, will make a determination.

Either I'll approve it to put it back and be more skeptical of that flagger's judgement, or I'll delete it and give the flagger mental credit for being correct.

Freedom Of Speech... What a lie

rando says

No need. I'll see them in the moderation queue, and as the local emperor-god, will make a determination.

Will use sparingly. Sounds reasonable, oh keeper of the way, Patrick.

That said, I think it pays to wear your "ignores" and "your ad-hom score" right on your user line. Patrick, you have a community with no real incentive in civil discourse right now. I'm not interested in handle hoping, hiding, or trying to worm out from under my credibility or mistakes.

You are HARBORING TROLLS! DEPORT THEM or let me see them for what they are. :)

I miss the good old days of being able to see what an ass some people had made of themselves. As a new user, finding my way, it was instructive in making choices about who to interact with, and what to put any sort of faith/effort in discussing. That took over a year, back in the housing bubble days, to sort lunacy from value.

Rew says

I think it pays to wear your "ignores" and "your ad-hom score" right on your user line.

That's kinda negative. How about a "civility" score, which is the percent of your comments that are not ad hominem?

Ironman says

But you keep making changes based on the crying and whining by the minority of posters.

Sorry that changes are annoying. I myself get annoyed by changes in sites I use. But I think this is probably a worthwhile change. Civility is worth something, especially online, where anonymity tempts people to be worse than they would in real life.

rando says

I'm very interested in ways to keep the site up in the face of attacks, exactly because lots of people are opposed to open discussion of certain issues and so I expect them to attack.

CDN

joshuatrio says

CDN

Would work for static stuff like photos and CSS, but dynamic HTML does not lend it self to a CDN.

Though in theory Amazon now allows edge generation of HTML. But then, that would make me dependent on Amazon, which has already banned patrick.net from their affiliates program for political incorrectness.

Ironman says

based on the crying and whining by the minority of posters.

When the civil are the minority, that's exactly when a change like this is warranted. ;)

rando says

Civility is worth something, especially online, where anonymity tempts people to be worse than they would in real life.

Well said.

rando says

Maybe the experiment in radically free speech has failed, and I do need to ban direct insults.

Insults and trolling aren't the same thing. There is overlap, but it is valid to question one's opponents character and sincerity if they consistently engage in deceptive discussion such as repeating debunked lies or attempting to derail a conversation by goating people. I don't think an out-right ban on all insults would be effective. You need to ban trolling, not expressions of disgust, and there is a difference.

However, I do not have a solution to offer you at this time.

rando says

"You are a goat-fucker." = ad hominem, now forbidden

Damn it! There goes half my posts regarding CIC.

Can we subtly imply that a person is a goat fucker if we don't outright call him one? For example,
I'm not saying that CIC is a goat fucker, but he recently bought a lot of condoms and goat feed.

Rew says

I also agree that sections would be great: Econ Sci Polotics Humor

Each section should have its own top trending posts. Each few top trending post should be viewable on the home page.

OK @Rew check out the home page now. Is that what you meant?

Use the front page to promote best/relevant/breaking news stories relevant posts.
In more of a news site layout instead of a forum layout.
More like the way you were highlighting the linked article more than the threads at one point, but some didn't like it because they wanted to see the OP on the homepage.
I would employ that exact same concept but with a slicker news site layout. Something that blows Breitbart and JudgeReport layout away.
The articles can still link back to the slam fest going on in the "All" forum category.

It would involve you or perhaps some admins(not to censors but promote hot news stories) promoting these stories, or you could do it based on a algorithm.

Tenpoundbass says

Use the front page to promote best/relevant/breaking news stories relevant posts.

But what is that ranking exactly?

I currently have the home page categories sorting by most recent activity in a topic.

Could also do newest post.

Or many other ways... Not sure how to select.

Patrick, intentionally or not, you have posed a challenge - how to insult people without being flagged ad hominem. I try hard (really hard) to not insult directly, but I have hard time resisting a challenge.

Well, at least it will be interesting to see what creative solutions people come up with to keep insulting the person without doing it directly.

I think people really enjoy insulting each other online, so they're not about to give it up.

This site's attraction is inside baseball talk about investing. More articles provoking conversation about that might be useful to increase viewership? As to the rest I don't care, it is entertaining to PO the Wogster and the rest of the mutts.

I doubt it would help with first page bouncing, but it might be a nice feature to allow users to login via oauth, like google or facebook. Seems to be popular with many users.

Regarding bounces...I wonder if the big "free speech forum" makes users think that the forum has a different main topic/theme than it really does.

Consider doing some A/B testing, doing tweaks to the homepage to certain random users, and marking them via GA. Then you can see which changes help.

rando says

I think people really enjoy insulting each other online, so they're not about to give it up.

Agreed. It is so much easier doing it online than in person.

I any case, I appreciate your efforts to improve the site.

You could just create a patrick.net subverse on voat. It's pretty much a free speech space (it's essentially an alternate to the heavily censored Reddit).