patrick.net

Strategist says

Quigley says

Oh yes, unions are true terrorists. They encourage employees to fight for a living wage for God's sake! Real Americans would accept the pittance offered by the holy employer and file for section 8 housing, food stamps and free gub'mint healthcare! That's how true patriots do it!

Sorry Quigley, there is a reason why union membership has been on the decline. Wealth has to be produced before it can be claimed in the form of higher wages. Real wages are determined by your productivity regardless of what you may think living wages should be.

I think what you mean to say is that enough wealth must be earned to pay the CEO 100x a worker's salary with stock options and bonuses of course, and then lavishly reward a board and management. If there's any left over, the actual wealth producers (employees) get a spot at the end of the line.
Unions just provide some balance. Putting all the power with the company is like putting only two legs on a table. It's bound to topple over.

Quigley says

Unions just provide some balance.

They dont, i'll tell you why.

Quigley says

I think what you mean to say is that enough wealth must be earned to pay the CEO 100x a worker's salary with stock options and bonuses of course, and then lavishly reward a board and management. If there's any left over, the actual wealth producers (employees) get a spot at the end of the line.

What if there is a loss? Is the janitor willing to take a pay cut?

The reason union membership has been on the decline is:
1)outsourcing of labor to low wage countries
2)corporate greed
3)corporations account for more than 100 of the top political contributors to either party. They've bought and paid for our government and get the laws they want as a result.
4)constant media propaganda against organized labor

Even a poorly run union at least allows its members to contribute to the local economy, raising all boats and creating business opportunity. A few rich board members intent on rewarding themselves and stockholders is a tried and true recipe for creating American ghost towns. Killing towns is un-American. So, in conclusion, you have to ask yourself: Why do you hate America?

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

indigenous says

The secret on fighting terrorism is not to create it in the first place.

No one can disagree with that statement. The million dollar question is, who creates it in the first place

The CIA...

Oh God...what are we gonna do with you.

Quigley says

The reason union membership has been on the decline is:

1)outsourcing of labor to low wage countries

That trend ain't gonna change.

Quigley says

2)corporate greed

That existed even during the rise of the unions.

Quigley says

3)corporations account for more than 100 of the top political contributors to either party.

That always existed too.

Quigley says

4)constant media propaganda against organized labor

If a liberal press is anti union, the unions must be really really bad.

You left out the real reason....Union greed. They sank company after company with their ridiculous demands. I wonder how the Twinkies union workers feel about their union. And to think they paid dues to a union boss who makes half a million or something. You don't get what you pay for.

Hey check this out:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29339845

Air France has offered to scrap plans to expand its Transavia low-cost airline in Europe, in return for pilots returning to work immediately.

In a statement, it said the proposal would help "find an immediate outcome to this destructive conflict".

The company also offered "a renewed guarantee that there will be no relocation" of jobs.

Pilots have been on strike for 10 days and have grounded about half of the airline's flights.

They are unhappy at the lower rates of pay offered by the expanding budget operation compared with core Air France services, threatening to strike indefinitely unless the European expansion is scrapped.

The strike has been costing the airline up to 15m euros (£11.8m) a day.

Air France said it would instead develop its Transavia France project.

"Our Transavia project is a 100% pro-France project. It is about developing Transavia to encourage growth in France and quickly create more than 1,000 jobs in France (including 250 pilot jobs)," said the chief executives of Air France-KLM, Alexandre de Juniac, and Air France, Frederic Gagey in a joint statement.

The greedy Air France union restricts the development of low cost airlines, forcing travelers to pay more. Over time, a new low cost startup will start taking market share from Air France, either driving it out of business or becoming dependent on government subsidies. But the unions don't give a crap because they will have milked the cow until their last miserable day.

Once again, you are proven wrong wrong wrong wrongwrongwrong....

Dan8267 says

1. All humans have human rights.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Just remember, eventually some corrupt asshole will accuse you or one of your family members of being a terrorist or criminal because of


- a grudge


- a bounty


- a clerical error


- pseudo-science

Relax, the CIA is not that stupid.

How can you be so ignorant of the history that occurred in your lifetime and only a few years ago?

CIA tortures wrong man

In 2003, Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen in Macedonia, was grabbed off a bus and taken to a secret prison in Afghanistan as part of the CIA’s extraordinary rendition program. He was held there for five months. El-Masri was suspected of having ties to al-Qaeda, but he was the wrong guy. The mix-up was due to a misunderstanding concerning his name with the real suspected terrorist, as the names are spelled the same when using Arabic script.

A fucking clerical error and the CIA tortures an innocent man for five months.

Upon arrival, still handcuffed and blindfolded, he was initially placed in a chair, where he sat for one and a half hours….Then, two people violently pulled his arms back. On that occasion he was beaten severely from all sides. His clothes were sliced from his body with scissors or a knife. His underwear was forcibly removed. He was thrown to the floor, his hands were pulled back and a boot was placed on his back. He then felt a firm object being forced into his anus….He was then pulled from the floor and dragged to a corner of the room, where his feet were tied together. His blindfold was removed. A flash went off and temporarily blinded him. When he recovered his sight, he saw seven or eight men dressed in black and wearing black ski masks.

Four months, two hunger strikes, and a sojourn in more than one secret prison later, the man, Khaled El-Masri, who had been picked up in Macedonia in 2003, was simply dumped by the side of the road near an Albanian border crossing. Along the way, he’d had a gun held to his head as an interrogator berated him, demanding that he admit his connection to Al Qaeda. Why would someone with such dangerous connections be released? What about the casual information he might have that could unravel some devious plot?

The answer is simple: after a couple of months, the C.I.A. figured out that they had picked up not a shadowy terrorist but a car salesman from Bavaria who happened to have a similar name. Even then, they kept him prisoner for several weeks while trying to figure out their next move.

European court of human rights finds against CIA abuse of Khaled el-Masri

The CIA stripped, hooded, shackled, and sodomized el-Masri with a suppository – in CIA parlance, subjected him to "capture shock" – as Macedonian officials stood by. The CIA drugged him and flew him to Kabul to be locked up in a secret prison known as the "Salt Pit", where he was slammed into walls, kicked, beaten, and subjected to other forms of abuse. Held at the Salt Pit for four months, el-Masri was never charged, brought before a judge, or given access to his family or German government representatives.

The CIA ultimately realised that it had mistaken el-Masri for an al-Qaida suspect with a similar name. But it held on to him for weeks after that. It was not until 24 May 2004, that he was flown, blindfolded, earmuffed, and chained to his seat, to Albania, where he was dumped on the side of the road without explanation.

So Strategist, is your family immune to clerical errors? How would you like it if your son was sodomized by some sickos in the CIA?

Dan8267 says

How can you be so ignorant of the history that occurred in your lifetime and only a few years ago?

Strategist is ignorant of the history of what he did this morning, never mind a few years ago.

Dan8267 says

So Strategist, is your family immune to clerical errors? How would you like it if your son was sodomized by some sickos in the CIA?

When has anyone ever been immune to clerical errors errors?
The CIA makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
The FBI makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
The IRS makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
The Cops makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
The military makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
The government makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.
Now we have anarchy.
Mistakes are guaranteed. Get used to it.

Call it Crazy says

Haven't you figured it out yet?

Dan NEVER makes mistakes.... That's why he's superior not only to everyone here at Patnet, but also the whole country!

Do you think Mother Nature made a mistake with Dan?

Strategist says

When has anyone ever been immune to clerical errors errors?

The CIA makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

You made the erroneous statement that the CIA isn't stupid enough to torture a person because of a clerical error. This statement is empirically false.

Rather than admitting that you were wrong and that we can't trust the CIA to not torture the wrong person, you are now making the Straw Man argument and false dichotomy that we either let the CIA commit crimes against humanity and torture innocent people, or we entirely shut down the CIA and give up any form of government to roam the land naked and lawless.

The use of Straw Men and false dichotomies indicate weakness and a fool's position. People who honestly believe they have a good case rely on neither.

Furthermore, you have failed to learn the most important lesson presented to you, that you are also at risk of being harmed by lawless and unaccountable government agencies. That clerical error could have damn well been you or your son.

Not only did the CIA illegally torture an innocent person, but when the mistake was found out, instead of releasing that person, the CIA tried to torture him into false confessions to cover up their mistake and then left him for dead, hoping he wouldn't live to tell his story, in the middle of nowhere. These are not people with good intentions.

As for the alternative to lawlessness? Well, we can start by prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law, any person involved in the kidnapping, false imprisonment, and torture of this innocent person. The long arm of the law should be able to reach other parts of the government's body.

Call it Crazy says

Haven't you figured it out yet?

Dan NEVER makes mistakes.... That's why he's superior not only to everyone here at Patnet, but also the whole country!

1. I have admitted to mistakes on this site.
2. I have never claimed to never make mistakes. In fact I've claimed the opposite.
3. Whenever I do make a mistake, I correct it.
4. Yes, I do make far fewer mistakes than you, but that's mainly because you deliberately make mistakes to support your evil agenda.
5. I have never claimed to be "superior to everyone".
6. Yes, I am morally, intellectually, and ethically superior to you, personally. But it's not that I have a high opinion of myself. It's that I have a very low opinion of you.
7. You're attempt to Poisoning the Well is transparent. The only people who poison the well are those with no case who are trying to fool an audience they believe is stupid. By making this attempt, you are telling all Patrick.net readers that you think they are stupid enough to fall for your puerile tricks.
8. The mature thing to do when presented with a compelling counter-argument to something you believe is to either find a rational flaw in the counter-argument or, if you can't do that, change your belief to accommodate your now greater understanding of the subject matter. I do this all the time, which is why I make far fewer mistakes than you do.

CaptainShuddup says

I wrote in Ron Paul for President.

Yeah Ron Paul never lies. Riiiight!

Vicente says

CaptainShuddup says

I wrote in Ron Paul for President.

Yeah Ron Paul never lies. Riiiight!

Everyone lies. It's impossible to get through life without encountering a situation where the only non-foolish course of action is to lie. To always speak the truth would make someone effectively mentally handicap and incapable of participating in society. This is sad, but true, and ignoring this reality won't change it.

However, not all lies are equal. Lies to protect one from evil attacks, e.g. telling the Nazis that you aren't hiding Ann Frank, are entirely different than lies used as weapons, e.g. falsely accusing someone of a crime.

The real question is not whether or not Captain Shuddup really did write in Ron Paul for president, but rather why he might do so. Does the Captain support Ron Paul's stance on
- stopping torture
- ending undeclared wars
- dismantling the military industrial complex
- ending America's empire
- supporting civil rights

This is hardly likely. Far more likely, the Captain likes Ron Paul's economic policies, which are essentially the same as all other Republicans, to let corporations do whatever the hell they want to.

Reasons are far more important than conclusions.

Vicente says

CaptainShuddup says

I wrote in Ron Paul for President.

Where did I say that?

Call it Crazy says

But you have to come back and write a short novel to tells us how WONDERFUL you are... See a trend yet?

Honey, that response wasn't about me, it was about you and how much of a despicable liar you are.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

When has anyone ever been immune to clerical errors errors?


The CIA makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

You made the erroneous statement that the CIA isn't stupid enough to torture a person because of a clerical error. This statement is empirically false.

Rather than admitting that you were wrong and that we can't trust the CIA to not torture the wrong person, you are now making the Straw Man argument and false dichotomy that we either let the CIA commit crimes against humanity and torture innocent people, or we entirely shut down the CIA and give up any form of government to roam the land naked and lawless.

Don't put words in my mouth. Here is what I said:
1. The CIA makes mistakes like all organizations.
2. The CIA is not stupid.
3. If the CIA tortures terrorists to save innocent lives, I won't complain.
Put it together and what do you have? Occasionally the CIA will end up torturing the wrong person to save innocent lives, just like the courts will end up convicting the wrong person at times. It does not indicate we should just shut everything down, as the alternative is anarchy.

Strategist says

When has anyone ever been immune to clerical errors errors?

The CIA makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

The FBI makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

The IRS makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

The Cops makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

The military makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

The government makes mistakes, so let's shut them down.

Now we have anarchy.

Mistakes are guaranteed. Get used to it.

A burst of light dawns. A big duh moment for strategist. Ok now try something totally unfamiliar to you. Actually think for a minute. Mistakes are guaranteed. That's exactly why there is due process of law with courts, lawyers, public scrutiny, appeals, and more appeals. That is why there shouldn't be secret military tribunals, indefinate detention, and a president who can order anyone killed at any time.

I'm so glad you could actually move beyond the limitations imposed on your ability to think by your slavish devotion to the far right and have a lucid moment of reasonable thought. Is this an anomaly or the beginning of an effort to recover your testicles and brain from rush?

bob2356 says

A burst of light dawns. A big duh moment for strategist. Ok now try something totally unfamiliar to you. Actually think for a minute. Mistakes are guaranteed. That's exactly why there is due process of law with courts, lawyers, public scrutiny, appeals, and more appeals. That is why there shouldn't be secret military tribunals, indefinate detention, and a president who can order anyone killed at any time.

And still they make mistakes in spite of due process. Dan reminded us of innocent people on death row in spite of 25 years of investigations, and tens of millions of dollars. Mistakes are GUARANTEED.
When we are at war with terrorists, going through that due process will only harm us. It's a war, not a speeding ticket. Unusual circumstances require unusual solutions.

Strategist says

And still they make mistakes in spite of due process. Dan reminded us of innocent people on death row in spite of 25 years of investigations, and tens of millions of dollars. Mistakes are GUARANTEED.

When we are at war with terrorists, going through that due process will only harm us. It's a war, not a speeding ticket.

You are going to end up with the country you deserve. People like you who totally fail to comprehend the basic concepts that are the foundation of the country make me I'm so glad I have other citizenships if I need them.

Strategist says

Unusual circumstances require unusual solutions.

You've been reading the writings of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao I see. Well at least you are reading.

Strategist says

3. If the CIA tortures terrorists to save innocent lives, I won't complain.

Occasionally the CIA will end up torturing the wrong person to save innocent lives, just like the courts will end up convicting the wrong person at times. It does not indicate we should just shut everything down, as the alternative is anarchy.

Until it's your kid being tortured. That makes you a hypocrite.

It also makes you both evil and stupid. Evil because you are ok with people being tortured. Stupid because you actually think that torturing innocent persons, or even terrorists, will make us safer when in reality it makes us less safe.

You are also a fool to believe that we cannot have a lawful government, that the only choices we have are anarchy or Nazi Germany. What a stupid, stupid false dichotomy.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Unusual circumstances require unusual solutions.

You've been reading the writings of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao I see. Well at least you are reading.

You don't have to read the works of evil to be a fan. Strategist is reaching the same conclusions because he uses the same Stone Age mentality that all evil despots use. It's the caveman's kill all my neighbors before they can kill me and then rape all the women mentality. Yeah, that might have worked in the Stone Age, but it doesn't work in the Nuclear Age.

Call it Crazy says

Hmmm... For a post about me, there were certainly a hell of a lot of "I's" in it

Ah Republican dishonesty and hypocrisy at its finest. First you make a false accusation against me. Then when I thoroughly debunk your false accusation, you make another false accusation to distract from the fact that you were just shown to be a liar.

Regardless of your worthless opinion regarding me, all my statements in this thread have been factually correct whereas everything you've said has been a lie. Since you cannot find flaw in my arguments and you cannot support your assertions with evidence, you resort to personal attacks.

In contrast, I dismantle your arguments, illustrate their hypocrisy and contradiction, and only then insult you for being a moronic, unethical bigot with penis envy. The insults, well deserved by you, are the icing on the cake, not the foundations of my arguments.

Dan8267 says

After a couple of months, the C.I.A. figured out that they had picked up not a shadowy terrorist but a car salesman from Bavaria who happened to have a similar name. Even then, they kept him prisoner for several weeks while trying to figure out their next move.

The CIA ultimately realised that it had mistaken el-Masri for an al-Qaida suspect with a similar name. But it held on to him for weeks after that. It was not until 24 May 2004, that he was flown, blindfolded, earmuffed, and chained to his seat, to Albania, where he was dumped on the side of the road without explanation.

That's not an innocent mistake. That's malice. That's literally terrorism. That's criminal.

Call it Crazy says

BTW, have you looked up the definition of a narcissist yet?

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone who gives a damn about what you think.

Dan8267 says

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone who gives a damn about what you think.

Not that you care what anyone thinks, but you are a narcissist.

I'd rather be an ethical narcissist on the right side of history than a scumbag who believes its ok to torture innocent people in the vain attempt to torture "guilty" people or a liar who promotes such vile policies.

Of course, I could easily argue that anyone accusing me of narcissism is merely projecting their insecurity complex. I have yet to be called arrogant, vain, or narcissistic by anyone I respect, and there are multitudes of such people. It's a hell of a coincidence that everyone who accuses me of arrogance is someone I determined was an idiot long before the accusations started flying.

Call it Crazy says

Well, we BOTH agree that you're an idiot..

I'd explain why you are wrong, but ironically, in order to understand the explanation you would require the very reading comprehension skills whose lack caused you to err in the first place.

When voting this fall, please read this thread and realize the kind of people who support Republicans. Then ask yourself if you really want to be associated with those dumb fucks.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

And still they make mistakes in spite of due process. Dan reminded us of innocent people on death row in spite of 25 years of investigations, and tens of millions of dollars. Mistakes are GUARANTEED.


When we are at war with terrorists, going through that due process will only harm us. It's a war, not a speeding ticket.

You are going to end up with the country you deserve. People like you who totally fail to comprehend the basic concepts that are the foundation of the country make me I'm so glad I have other citizenships if I need them.

The country I deserve is the country all humans deserve. Freedom, education, democracy, healthcare, and spectacular scientific progress. Sometimes in order to achieve what we deserve, we must temporarily step back to ward off those who plan on taking away our freedoms.

Dan8267 says

I'd rather be an ethical narcissist on the right side of history than a scumbag who believes its ok to torture innocent people in the vain attempt to torture "guilty" people or a liar who promotes such vile policies.

Here's a million dollar question...I heard it on TV a few years ago, and it set me thinking. "Would you torture to save the life of your child" If the answer is "No" you are a bad parent.

Strategist says

Here's a million dollar question...I heard it on TV a few years ago, and it set me thinking. "Would you torture to save the life of your child" If the answer is "No" you are a bad parent.

I hate those sorts of questions. They set you up for a "right" answer.

Here's another one:

You see a strange child stuck on railroad tracks, a train approaching. Do you jump to save this child, and risk death? What if you have children of your own who will be left parentless?

Strategist says

The country I deserve is the country all humans deserve. Freedom, education, democracy, healthcare, and spectacular scientific progress. Sometimes in order to achieve what we deserve, we must temporarily step back to ward off those who plan on taking away our freedoms.

The only people taking away american freedoms are americans. The people in power who do it because of the people like you who allow it.

I thought Call It Crazy was suppose to be a grandfather, but he talks like a five-year-old. Is that his real age or just his literacy level?

Strategist says

"Would you torture to save the life of your child" If the answer is "No" you are a bad parent.

So Strategist, would you torture another person's child to save your child? If so, you should be in prison.

The problem with questions like these is that they don't reflect reality. Torturing people won't make you safer. And people who answer yes to such questions, they have a tendency to think of torture and murder as the only options.

Vicente says

You see a strange child stuck on railroad tracks, a train approaching. Do you jump to save this child, and risk death? What if you have children of your own who will be left parentless?

Excellent point. The answer to conservatives like Strategist and Crazy is, of course, "fuck no". After all, other people's children mean nothing to them. In fact, they value their own children's lives only because those kids carry their DNA. These assholes would gladly kill everyone in the world to ensure their own genetic survival. It's the epitome of immorality and short-sightedness.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

"Would you torture to save the life of your child" If the answer is "No" you are a bad parent.

So Strategist, would you torture another person's child to save your child? If so, you should be in prison.

Oh boy, that's a tough one. I don't think I could.
I would have no problem torturing, or rather allowing a terrorist to be tortured to save anyones child.

Dan8267 says

The problem with questions like these is that they don't reflect reality. Torturing people won't make you safer. And people who answer yes to such questions, they have a tendency to think of torture and murder as the only options.

They have used waterboarding which is not even torture to extract crucial information from terrorists that have saved lives.

Dan8267 says

Vicente says

You see a strange child stuck on railroad tracks, a train approaching. Do you jump to save this child, and risk death? What if you have children of your own who will be left parentless?

Excellent point. The answer to conservatives like Strategist and Crazy is, of course, "fuck no". After all, other people's children mean nothing to them. In fact, they value their own children's lives only because those kids carry their DNA. These assholes would gladly kill everyone in the world to ensure their own genetic survival. It's the epitome of immorality and short-sightedness.

Oh God, there he goes again.
Hey Call Crazy, we really chapped his hide this time.