patrick.net

spydah_hh says

This is a takedown move not a choke hold.

He was continuing to choke him after he fell. The guy was overweight, and a bunch of cops are on him and one still has his arm across his neck.

spydah_hh says

Just to say this, if you watch the video you'll notice that the officer didn't use a chokehold, it was more of a take down. A choke hold is when one arm is around the head interlocked with the other arm around the front of the neck. The officer used his right arm to go under the right armpit to the right shoulder of Mr. Garner while the other arm was wrapped around most of Mr Garner's neck. This is a takedown move not a choke hold. Of course all of this was applied after Mr. Garner resisted arrest.

Tiny Napoleonic piss ants shouldn't be taking down people the size of Fat Albert.

If you're not bigger than the suspect, and you try to restrain someone. Then at that point you are no longer a law enforcement officer restoring law and order. You are an UFC fighter killing your opponent in the ring.

Yes short people can take bigger people but it is more dangerous for the bigger person. The police should pick on people their own size.

marcus says

Maybe everyone can agree this one is totally fucked up ?

He says repeatedly. "I can't breath."

And all he did was break up a fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo

Have you ever watched COps?

A good chunk of those resisting arrest complain of an imaginary malady during the struggle.

Keep in mind I'm not passing judgment on the situation...I don't know enough about it.

But as usual, your thought process is faulty.

Call it Crazy says

Garner had multiple arrests for similar complaints and was out on bond awaiting trial. Some reports have him at over 30 different arrests over the years.

He was well know by the cops in that neighborhood.

When he was told by the cop he was being arrested he decided to resist and put up a struggle. Probably because he knew getting arrested AGAIN would revoke his bond.

I change my mind on this.

It's a shame what happened here. At first blush it smacks of police brutality, but not knowing all the facts I won't pass judgement. Complicating factors like the dead man's very poor state of health have to be considered. And the fact that it wasn't truly a chokehold. Very likely the excitement and stress of the encounter caused the heart attack that killed him.
Choices, whether to resist arrest or to eat junk food all your life, have consequences.

Agreed.
Brown, Martin, Garner would all be alive today if the police changed tactics and used skittles, marlboros, and swisher sweets as bait...

CaptainShuddup says

Tiny Napoleonic piss ants shouldn't be taking down people the size of Fat Albert.

SoftShell says

Brown, Martin, Garner would all be alive today if the police changed tactics and used skittles, marlboros, and swisher sweets as bait...

See they would been better off if they came to Calif, in Calif we would have treated them like a King.

Call it Crazy says

Garner had multiple arrests for similar complaints and was out on bond awaiting trial. Some reports have him at over 30 different arrests over the years.

He was well know by the cops in that neighborhood.

What was his crime? He was selling loose cigarettes. That is an incredibly low-level offense, even lower level than selling drugs. And why this business works? New York city has the highest cost for cigarettes. Nanny-staters don't see how that would play into this underground market of cigarettes?

From http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/03/the-policies-behind-eric-garner-s-death.html:
"
Yet clearly something has gone horribly wrong when a man lies dead after being confronted for selling cigarettes to willing buyers. Especially since, as even Bratton has acknowledged, the chokehold applied by the restraining officer is prohibited by the NYPD’s own rulebook. Does the commissioner really control his officers, and is it time to rethink nanny state policies that create flourishing underground markets?"

On the other hand the cop's obviously vengeful campaign against the guy that filmed this was successful in producing a Grand Jury indictment:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/nypd-cop-who-choked-eric-garner-wasnt-indicted-but-man-who-recorded-the-incident-was/

Smokes cost 14 fucking bucks a pack in NYC, thanks largely to Mother Bloomberg.
Selling cigarettes by the each is a community service.

How much do these cops make per hour?

It's a risky job for so little scratch.

And again, where is the evidence that he used this choke hold because the guy was black? Because THAT is why we are talking about it.

The real crime here is that dude that recorded the whole thing. He needs to be shot in the face fourteen bazillion times by LEO. Or freedom has no meaning and liberty and the pursuit of life is dead as we know it

We need more laws telling people what they can't do on a street. That way cops will have to enforce them and harrass even more people over nothing!

What say you, Mayor DeBlasio?

href="http://patrick.net/?p=1262715&c=1157122#comment-1157122">errc says

The real crime here is that dude that recorded the whole thing.

I would have a lot more faith in the disinterested fairness of the system if it didn't pull shit like that.

Call it Crazy says

The law won, of course, as it almost always does.

Almost.

Except when it's a spoiled white Nevada rancher who grazes his cattle on someone else's land. Then the law backs off and apologizes.

I think the evidence is clear:
- the cops had to use violence to arrest a suspect that refuse to submit willingly.
- the suspect being twice the cop's weight, it's probably hard to tell how much force to apply
- there was no way to for the cop to know the guy was asthmatic and would go into cardiac arrest.

So this is an accident. I'm not sure exactly what to discuss about this.
It looks bad, but once you start using violence, this kind of things will happen.

Heraclitusstudent says

So this is an accident. I'm not sure exactly what to discuss about this.

This is very important. Cops have developed the habit of "kill first, ask questions later". The use of deadly force on every little lawbreaker is not justified. The guy wasn't even committing any crime at that time.

From: http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/12/03/judge-andrew-napolitano-nypd-officer-daniel-pantaleo-should-have-been-indicted-eric

""My thoughts are this ought to have been an indictment and there ought to have been some sort of indictment for manslaughter ... because of the excessive use of deadly force on a person who posed no serious or material threat to the police," Judge Andrew Napolitano said on "Shepard Smith Reporting" this afternoon.

Judge Nap noted he has not seen all the evidence that the grand jury saw, so that could change his opinion, but on the basis of what he saw in the video of the incident, he said he believes it is a case of an individual doing nothing more than selling untaxed cigarettes, and as a result of government interaction, he's dead.

"This is not a fair application of the law," Judge Nap said."

gsr says

Cops have developed the habit of "kill first, ask questions later". The use of deadly force on every little lawbreaker is not justified.

A choke-hold is not deadly force by nature. It's a way to neutralize a person and it's usually easy to stop when the person stops wrangling. To strangle a person usually requires maintaining the hold long AFTER the person has gone limp.

The problem is if you deal with an asthmatic that goes into cardiac arrest. There is no way to predict that. I don't think you can logically say there was a willingness to kill.

There is no greater power to give to the state, Then the ability to take human life

If you support police murdering citizens for doing nothing, Then you support the largest most powerful form of government imaginable

You are a statist

HydroCabron says

We need more laws telling people what they can't do on a street. That way cops will have to enforce them and harrass even more people over nothing!

What say you, Mayor DeBlasio?

This would actually be hillarious had it not come from a guy who persistently parrots msnbheehaw.

Stop advocating for the people who introduce nanny state laws and you might have some credibility.

errc says

There is no greater power to give to the state, Then the ability to take human life

If you support police murdering citizens for doing nothing, Then you support the largest most powerful form of government imaginable

You are a statist

No one supports that.

Also no one(well very few) believes that black lives don't matter. Or that people should be killed over innocuous crimes.

But to make an issue...to drum up support, the left has to build strawmen to create something to fight against and need useful idiots(you) to continue pounding that drum.

Maybe this evening I'll post the true incident showing police needless brutality. It barely made local news, probably cause the guy killed was white. But thug idiot cops killing someone...actually happened unlike these media sensations driven by modern day carnie barkers, trying to shovel loads of crap and people like you slurping it up.

gsr says

Can anyone explain why the grand jury did not indict the officer?

The Grand Jury has spoken. This matter is now closed and not up for debate.
Anyone saying otherwise is a rabble-rousing thug.

Next!

You support it

But I'm open to the possibility that you're just too gotdam dumb to think out even a single deviation on an implications chain

I don't want cops killing anyone. Skin color doesn't matter

The righties love government and especially, wealth destroying union government thugs so much, they will defend their every and any action

Hell, this dumb ass dodger John would probably support the big union government employees slaughtering his own mother and savaging her corpse, if the poor old bat got caught going 56 in a 55mph zone.

Rules are rules, And just like the big government union police, they are here to protect us. Done want your mom being raped and beaten to death? Then find break the rules

Heraclitusstudent says

The problem is if you deal with an asthmatic that goes into cardiac arrest. There is no way to predict that. I don't think you can logically say there was a willingness to kill.

There is an utter carelessness, if not willingness to kill. They shoot at any slightest provocation. Don't you see the pattern? And it is not just limited to blacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-ec-LrvKA

dodgerfanjohn says

Stop advocating for the people who introduce nanny state laws and you might have some credibility.

Says the guy with less than zero credibility.

You guys say "uh, don't you know that's what happens when cops arrest someone. Haven't you watched cops ?" (no btw, I have not). That's a BS excuse. These guy were piling on a 300 pound dude who was struggling on the ground because he couldn't breathe. And what did he do, to even deserve being arrested ? It's well known that new york has a policy of harassing people that they profile as possibly being up to no good. (Often that means - that's right - guilty of being black).

Yeah yeah. I know, I'm such a racist to say that.

I can not fucking believe that we can't all agree that an injustice was done here !

errc says

And just like the big government union police

That's low. Bringing their union into it to get your right wing bretheren to see how messed up the police are getting at times.

It's not the fault of collective bargaining that police are out of contol, or that the legal system doesn't go after these types of abuses of power.

humanity says

errc says

And just like the big government union police

That's low. Bringing their union into it to get your right wing bretheren to see how messed up the police are getting at times.

It's not the fault of collective bargaining that police are out of contol, or that the legal system doesn't go after these types of abuses of power.

Right wing brethren? Lol

The union fights to protect the police in all their wrong doings. How are they not culpable?

But that's besides the point. It's a dig at the dumb ass right wingers for always blabbing on about how bad unions are , and Joe bad the government is. Until it's a big government union member murdering a black guy. Then they erupt in cheer

The brotherhood mentality of the police unions is exactly why this type of shit has become a daily occurrence. All the union brother's in blue got each other's back . No matter how heinous the acts of their union brother's are, they never come out and protect and serve the citizenry from one of their own

humanity says

dodgerfanjohn says

Stop advocating for the people who introduce nanny state laws and you might have some credibility.

Says the guy with less than zero credibility.

You guys say "uh, don't you know that's what happens when cops arrest someone. Haven't you watched cops ?" (no btw, I have not). That's a BS excuse. These guy were piling on a 300 pound dude who was struggling on the ground because he couldn't breathe. And what did he do, to even deserve being arrested ? It's well known that new york has a policy of harassing people that they profile as possibly being up to no good. (Often that means - that's right - guilty of being black).

Yeah yeah. I know, I'm such a racist to say that.

I can not fucking believe that we can't all agree that an injustice was done here !

No you are a racist who can't discern which facts apply and which don't.

In short, your brain process doesn't work logically. You grasp onto facts without considering other facts, and you introduce your own racial bias to fill in the space that you're facts don't completely cover.

Like I said, I'll post later on the local incident where cops really did kill someone in an out of policy and probably illegal manner. Of course since it doesn't include race as a factor, you probably won't be outraged or even care.

Oh and about the TV show cops thing...you'd have to be a drooling knuckle dragger not to realize that somewhere north of 99% of those arrested lie to the cops.

humanity says

That's low. Bringing their union into it to get your right wing bretheren to see how messed up the police are getting at times.

But that is still a fact. There are numerous articles on this. The police union usually protect rouge cops.

Yeah "not all cops are bad", lotta good cops out there, good cops just mindin their business, watchin bad cops be bad, lettin it happen

This is a damning article...

Call it Crazy says

http://nypost.com/2014/12/04/eric-garner-was-a-victim-of-himself-for-deciding-to-resist/

If only he had gotten a NY resale license, this all could have been avoided...

Robert Sproul says

Smokes cost 14 fucking bucks a pack in NYC, thanks largely to Mother Bloomberg.

Selling cigarettes by the each is a community service.

Those fucking cigarettes we're loose! That's terrorism!!!!

After the financial crash several years back, police pursued a street vendor of illicit CD's and shot him dead on Christmas Day.

Why aren't the NYC cops hassling and killing bankers?

In the foreseeable future robots (and artificial intelligence in general) will replace virtually all jobs, including law enforcement.

Unions will have no place in that world.

Peter P says

Unions will have no place in that world.

The Communist Party will, instead.

Only in Libertarian lala land with no 2nd, 3rd, 4th order effects will people allow themselves and their children to starve to death because the 1% fires them all for robots.

When people have nothing to lose, they lose it.

In the USA, Guns are ample, and molotov cocktails easy to make. Any machine can be destroyed. It'll be a helluva long time before robotic infantry can take cover, be aware it's slowly being flanked, etc. That's a whole lot of automation, sensors, and processing power, not to mention software. Predictable patterns can be identified in robots and exploited. Then, you'd have to get LEO Robots to work together in a team, since operating singly they'd be easily overwhelmed and destroyed. There would be an enormous amount of real-life trial and error required, too.

There will be no need for supervisors, middle management, etc. Many of them will be smart enough to know that political power grows out of a gun.

When a LEO robot kills somebody, there's a lot less of a 'holdback' factor. In other words, shooting a LEO robot isn't the same as shooting at the Ministry of Peace human employees.

So if LEO Wilson shoots Human Brown, outraged bystanders won't feel as restrained to blow up LEO Wilson as they would human Wilson.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vp9GH3FLNlA

TL;DR It's easier to get over your programming and shoot a Dalek instead of Mr. Dalek.

Perhaps we need self-replicating, super-human, robotic cops.

We need order as opposed to chaos.

Order is only one possibility of Chaos.

The future unemployed can play immersive video games, which will feature the same boring middle-class dead-end jobs and oversized Pergraniteel McMansions they love so much.

Virtual Reality is already virtually real. With reduced intellectual capacity going forward most people will not be able to tell.

Peter P says

In the foreseeable future robots (and artificial intelligence in general) will replace virtually all jobs, including law enforcement.

Unions will have no place in that world.

Enough with the Nihilism already, one of the hallmarks of the modern economy is comparative advantage, IOW the more separation of labor their is the more jobs are created.

Who could have foreseen the jobs that would be demand today 100 years ago?

The reality is that there will be a shortage of workers not the Orwellian nightmare you describe.

http://www.ted.com/talks/rainer_strack_the_surprising_workforce_crisis_of_2030_and_how_to_start_solving_it_now