patrick.net

So your argument is that since the vast majority died from disease, it wasn't a genocide. Well, that's not the definition of genocide.

Genocide

the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

The history of America most certainly meets this definition. The fact that disease killed off more people than the genocides does not change the fact that the genocides did occur Nor does it diminish the significance of the genocides. In fact, the significance of the murders is even greater since the population was already greatly diminished.

The fact is that the U.S. government at the federal, state, and local level deliberately killed large groups of Native Americans both directly and indirectly with bounties. That's genocide regardless of how many had died before from smallpox. I'm not saying we blame the government for smallpox, but we should definitely blame the government for the Trail of Tears, the Sand Creek Massacre, the Wounded Knee Massacre, the Gnadenhutten Massacre, and a hundred years of promoting and paying for the killing of Native Americans.

The bottom line is that there would be a hell of a lot more descendants of those Native Americans today if it weren't for these genocides, and that's the entire purpose of genocide, to get rid of people. Yeah, disease killed more, but that does not alter the fact that our government committed genocide. It was immoral, and it is hypocritical for a country that prides itself as the best country in the world, the freest, and the most righteous. And ultimately, it just looks worst when we deny our country's history because that says we haven't learned our lesson.

Dan8267 says

the deliberate killing of a large group of people

But there was not the deliberate killing of a large group of people.

There was the deliberate killing of a fairly small number of people.

rando says

But there was not the deliberate killing of a large group of people.

There was the deliberate killing of a fairly small number of people.

OK, then exactly where do you draw the line in numbers? Between 1850 and 1870, over a hundred thousand Native Americans were killed in California alone, largely due to the bounties placed on their heads. Is that not enough to count as a genocide?

Estimates of the Native American population before colonization vary from 2 million to 20 million. Let's use the lowest estimate, 2 million. Let's also say that 90% of the deaths of Native Americans were caused by diseases. Let's even ignore the intentional infection of Native Americans by Europeans who were very fond of using germ warfare since the Middle Ages. Even with these most conservative estimates, that leaves 10% of 2 million, or 200,000 Native Americans killed by deliberate starvation or direct murder. Is that not enough to be called a genocide?

The United Nations estimates the Darfur Genocide at 300,000 .

To put the 200,000 figure in perspective -- and remember that this is the uttermost conservative estimate we can justify -- image if the Native Americans killed every single white man, woman, and child in the American colonies in the year 1690. Would you consider that genocide? I would.

Patrick says

Leftist violence arrives in high schools

I don't condone it or support it, but calling it "leftist" is mislabeling it.

Anti-(percieved) evil douchebag, is not leftist. These kids were for CLinton, a republican by any sane standard. Nobody actually knows where Trump is on the political spectrum, becasue he was just lying like crazy to get in power. Most of his political positions during the campaign, contradict his earlier positions (when he was over 60 years of age).

marcus says you made your bed says

I don't condone it or support it, but calling it "leftist" is mislabeling it.

No, calling it liberal would be mislabeling it. Calling it leftist is very accurate.

rando says

Dan8267 says

the deliberate killing of a large group of people

But there was not the deliberate killing of a large group of people.

There was the deliberate killing of a fairly small number of people.

Nice play on words. Since no one has any real idea of the indian population pre columbus how do you come up with this? If smallpox killed 90%, most of whom died before any real colonization, then there was killing of a substantial percentage of the remaining population. Which number matters?

Anyone making a blanket statement either way on such a complex situation played out over centuries is an idiot. This, in a nutshell, is the entire problem with modern day america. There are only extreme positions played out in black or white espoused by huge numbers of people who simply refuse to think, preferring to be lead along by whichever set of trite slogans and manifestly false assertions that happens to match what they want to believe.

Gropey McGroperson says

There wont be. All those cities...the police are barely enforcing order. Might have something to do with the fact that the protesters are organized and paid for by groups founded by George Soros, and ironically, the future political careers of Mayors of those cities relies on.....George Soros.

Want to document that somehow? The number of groups funded by Soros/liberals is a rounding error compared to the number of groups funded by koch/libertarians. Not that you would have any interest in knowing the facts, but try reading dark money to find out how large and pervasive the libertarian political/propaganda machine is.

Alcohol for the rednecks, pot for the libbies, mind altering religions for the masses.
We blame it on stupidity, but that is just the result of...

bob2356 says

huge numbers of people who simply refuse to think

We need an actual count.
The statements below are too ambiguous.
We live in a world of 1's and 0's...

rando says

Some relatively small number

Dan says

the deliberate killing of a large group

so a base2 accounting is acceptable...

That Craigslist "ad" has been circulated and clearly fake. Most I've seen mention a known troll.

It's eagerly passed around as proof of the most ridiculous conspiracy yet.

Dan8267 says

No, calling it liberal would be mislabeling it. Calling it leftist is very accurate.

Dan, can you please elaborate and explain the difference between the two? They are usually used synonymously, but if they shouldn't, it would be helpful to understand the difference.

And Marcus, from what I picked up, you are a teacher? Are there any laws, regulations, or policies that teachers have to adhere to when it comes to not delivering education from a particular political angle? Of course I understand there is a fine line and enforceability of something like this would be very gray.

In CA, 63% of voters voted blue this election. From what I understand however, much more than 63% of CA teachers and much more than 63% of CA students voted blue however. That's not a coincidence is it?

Also, does anyone know what PD is responsible for Woodside? Apparently it isn't Redwood City:

http://kron4.com/2016/11/12/redwood-city-police-respond-to-attack-of-young-trump-supporter/

Between the school and police, I'm quite interested in what disciplinary action will come down for this hate crime.

marcus says you made your bed says

Nobody actually knows where Trump is on the political spectrum, becasue he was just lying like crazy to get in power.

Yes, listening to him pander to evangelicals as an atheist, flip flop 3 times on the same day on abortion, spending the majority of his life as a NY lib, etc supports that.

But as crazy as it sounds, it's not what he believes that matters so much as sticking to his promises that got him elected that matters.

And by the way @Patrick, what smartphone are you using to take the pic above? Iphone3? 😜

bob2356 says

Gropey McGroperson says

There wont be. All those cities...the police are barely enforcing order. Might have something to do with the fact that the protesters are organized and paid for by groups founded by George Soros, and ironically, the future political careers of Mayors of those cities relies on.....George Soros.

Want to document that somehow? The number of groups funded by Soros/liberals is a rounding error compared to the number of groups funded by koch/libertarians. Not that you would have any interest in knowing the facts, but try reading dark money to find out how large and pervasive the libertarian political/propaganda machine is.

I don't see fake movement of conservative marching in the streets. If there was someone finding Cliven bundy, so be it, but that hasn't received 1/100th of the coverage the fake BLM movement did. I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect the backers of the current four day old protests to be uncovered by a msm with no interest in doing so, but I think it's very reasonable to assume based on prior events:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/08/16/hacked-soros-memo-baltimore-riots-provide-unique-opportunity-reform-police/amp/?client=safari

Keep in mind source doesn't really matter since there's an actual internal memo.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/16/black-lives-matter-cashes-100-million-liberal-foun/

Patrick has colonial tendencies. He really likes the idea of empire. Face it guys. He is probably correct that, compared to the oppression and killing of the Aborigines and the Palestinians, colonial America may not have killed or displaced as many native Americans. But, since nobody kept track, it is hard to tell. America was a colonial power with ideas of what is called MANIFEST DESTINY. Israel has the same doctrine. I assume that the criminals who almost killed most of the 750 thousand Aborigines also had the same doctrine.

So, Patrick, I wrote this on my personal blog at Talkmarkets: http://www.talkmarkets.com/contributor/gary-anderson/blog/global-markets/billionaire-fascism-is-on-the-rise-risking-financial-instability?post=95461&uid=4798

Throughout history, those who colonize treat the victims as less than human. Blacks, native Americans (savages), Aborigines, etc, were not fully human. Well, Sheldon Adelson tries a different course, but it is really the same. He says that the Palestinians did not exist. They were not a people, even though 750k lived in Palestine with the True Torah Jews in peace prior to Zionism. To say they were not a people is a lie because Israel replaced them with Zionist refugees and took their cities. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

So, Gropey, there were witnesses who said that the kids who went to the bus hub in Baltimore were not allowed to get on buses and leave for home. They were detained for the purposes of a riot. The police wanted it. That does not surprise me and it was probably backed by Homeland Security, founded by Zionist Skeletor, Michael Chertoff. #skeletor

You have to remember, COINTELPRO was factually proven by a breakin to an FBI office. I believe that what happened in Baltimore and Ferguson was a continuation of COINTELPRO, probably administered by Homeland Security.

BayArea says

it's not what he believes that matters so much as sticking to his promises that got him elected that matters

Which promises do you believe he will stick to ?

Gary Anderson says

those who colonize treat the victims as less than human

I agree with you. This accounts for a lot of the blaming of the Irish for the famine at the time, while boatloads of food were being exported to England.

And currently we are seeing the attempted de-humanization of white people, by casting all white people as inherently racist. Once an entire group is stigmatized with an inherent guilt based on the color of their skin, it becomes easy to harm them.

rando says

And currently we are seeing the attempted de-humanization of white people, by casting all white people as inherently racist.

That is made worse by Trump's election. I have gone into stores and have had to seek out the glances of people of color and smile and assure them with that smile that I am not Trump nor do I care for Trump. I am encouraged that you see the colonization issue, Patrick. I just believe that Trump is an uglier manifestation of empire than Clinton would have been. I think he believes in division and wants white America to be great again, with possible foreign policy ramifications.

The deluded nazis that voted for Trump sound just like the deluded liberals who voted for Obama. The results will be the same a few years down the road.

bob2356 says

Anyone making a blanket statement either way on such a complex situation played out over centuries is an idiot.

That's a cop-out. One can easily call the Holocaust a genocide. Is that a blanked statement of a complex situation? Greed and tribalism aren't complex. The motivations of those who commit genocide aren't subtle and complicated. They are just greedy assholes who don't give a shit about human life that's not part of their tribe. Evolution sometimes comes up with simple solutions and hardwires simple motivations in animals.

Ranina ranina says

We need an actual count.

The statements below are too ambiguous.

An actual account, the lowest possible estimate, was provided. But absolute numbers don't matter.

If the entire population of Jews today were 1000 people and the state decided to eradicate all 1000 for the purpose of eliminating the ethnic group, then that would be a genocide. It is the intent, the systematic depopulating or elimination of a people, that is the defining characteristic of genocide, not the absolute number of people killed.

A nuclear war, not directed at any specific people, that wiped out 90% of the world's population would not meet the definition of genocide.

rando says

And currently we are seeing the attempted de-humanization of white people, by casting all white people as inherently racist

Wtf ?

JUst don't know about you Patrick.

Gary Anderson says

Patrick has colonial tendencies. He really likes the idea of empire

I sincerely doubt that given Patrick's statements regarding the British empire and England's treatment of the Irish.

rando says

And currently we are seeing the attempted de-humanization of white people, by casting all white people as inherently racist.

I'll be the first person to call bullshit on race-baiting, but admitting the truths of history, no matter how horrifying, is not race-baiting. We acknowledge what really happen in history so that we can prevent the mistakes and atrocities of history from being repeated. This is why we look at all those disgusting pictures of the Holocaust in history class. And yes, you are suppose to hate the Nazis when looking at them. Hate serves a good purpose. The purpose of hate is to deny evil the benefits of cooperation and the power it could acquire through cooperation.

Furthermore, by condemning the Americans of the past who committed these atrocities I prevent myself from inheriting their sins. Those who whitewash the past inherit the guilt of the past. For example, the American South will never be forgiven for slavery until it admits its guilt and stops all attempts to economically, socially, and politically oppress the descendants of slaves through the war on drugs, voter suppression, zoning, etc.

BayArea says

Dan8267 says

No, calling it liberal would be mislabeling it. Calling it leftist is very accurate.

Dan, can you please elaborate and explain the difference between the two? They are usually used synonymously, but if they shouldn't, it would be helpful to understand the difference.

Done. So as to not derail this thread, I've opened another.

Libealism Defined

Fucking White Male says

I don't see fake movement of conservative marching in the streets. If there was someone finding Cliven bundy, so be it, but that hasn't received 1/100th of the coverage the fake BLM movement did. I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect the backers of the current four day old protests to be uncovered by a msm with no interest in doing so, but I think it's very reasonable to assume based on prior events:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/08/16/hacked-soros-memo-baltimore-riots-provide-unique-opportunity-reform-police/amp/?client=safari

So did you only read the headline? Because you either didn't read the article. or you didn't understand it.

No fake conservative movements? Really? The entire tea party is a fake conservative movement. The entire climate denial movement is a fake conservative movement. The bulk of anti obama care was a fake conservative movement. The hundreds and hundreds of tax exempt groups with names like americans for, citizens for, people for that constantly come and go are all fake conservative movements. Just because you choose not to know doesn't mean it's not out there.

Dan8267 says

I sincerely doubt that given Patrick's statements regarding the British empire and England's treatment of the Irish.

You are correct. He has corrected me and agrees that colonization is evil. I am just saying Trump as a manifestation of colonization could end up being worse than Clinton due to the racism that could affect his foreign policy. But we will see.

bob2356 says

Fucking White Male says

I don't see fake movement of conservative marching in the streets. If there was someone finding Cliven bundy, so be it, but that hasn't received 1/100th of the coverage the fake BLM movement did. I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect the backers of the current four day old protests to be uncovered by a msm with no interest in doing so, but I think it's very reasonable to assume based on prior events:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/08/16/hacked-soros-memo-baltimore-riots-provide-unique-opportunity-reform-police/amp/?client=safari

So did you only read the headline? Because you either didn't read the article. or you didn't u...

Did you read the title of this thread?

So what? It's been working for the clintons for ages.
Trump just took their strategy of flipflopping and successfully amplified it to the nth degree.
Stings like a bitch, don't it?

BayArea says

marcus says you made your bed says

Nobody actually knows where Trump is on the political spectrum, becasue he was just lying like crazy to get in power.

Yes, listening to him pander to evangelicals as an atheist, flip flop 3 times on the same day on abortion, spending the majority of his life as a NY lib, etc supports that.

FIFY...
rando says

Once an entire group is stigmatized with an inherent guilt based on the color of their skin, it becomes easy to harm them They become baby libbies.

FIFY...

Gary Anderson says

I have gone into stores and have had to seek out the glances of people of color and smile and assure them with that smile that I am not Trump nor do I care for Trump do not wish to be robbed by them.

Fucking White Male says

Did you read the title of this thread?

Did you? Did you actually read the article? What does a couple high school kids fighting that have to do with soros or baltimore riots?

Trump supporters are no better than clinton supporters. There are equally crazy loonies on both sides. Trump asked his supporters to stop their violence yesterday. I guess you and patrick missed that. Didn't make the right wing echo chamber "news" did it? Led around by the nose much? Maybe if you ask nicely you can borrow your soul, brain and balls back on weekends. I've heard that sometimes trolls and right wingnuts are allowed to do that.

Ranina ranina says

FIFY...

rando says

Once an entire group is stigmatized with an inherent guilt based on the color of their skin, it becomes easy to harm them They become baby libbies.

Incorrect grammar. Libbies is not a valid contraction of libertarian.

I'm trying to be funny. Work with me...

ThreeBays says

Gropey McGroperson says

ThreeBays says

The violence is bad. The protests are good. They should save the Trump voter flogging till after he fracks up America.

The protests are entirely funded. That is not good.

Is it true? Source?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-13/blocks-anti-trump-protest-buses-caught-tape