patrick.net

Actually the Bundy situation is a great demonstration of exactly why an armed citizenry is able to provide a check on government overreach. The feds had guns and the ranchers had guns. Both in a stand off. But if the Feds opened fire first, they’d be guilty of brazenly assaulting the public and declaring war on the people.

you NEVER want to declare war on the people!

Instead, the Feds decided to deescalate the situation and try their luck in court. Where the Feds lost in their bid to lock up the Bundys.

If they hadn’t been armed, the Feds could have just used the threat of their superior firepower, and arrested everyone to close out the protest.
But since they were armed wirh equal or equivalent firepower, the Feds had to negotiate.

Quigley says

Sure. The Bundys in Montana were able to defeat the federal government with armed resistance without firing a shot!

They staged a successful revolution? Is there a new country called Bundyville I don't know about?

errc says

Can you show me any instance of an armed American defeating the government?

Apparently you never studied History in school. So sad.

American Revolution.

The American Revolution was a colonial revolt that took place between 1765 and 1783. The American Patriots in the Thirteen Colonies won independence from Great Britain, becoming the United States of America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

errc says

Police perform raids every single day,

Sniper says

errc says

If they are concerned the target(s) maye be armed, they just come in spraying.

Really?

Can you post some links to those articles? Sounds interesting (and something out of a fictional Hollywood movie).

Got those links yet?

errc says

Are you suggesting inner city blacks should arm themselves and stand their ground against an oppressive government looking to harass them and take away their freedom and liberty wrt access to plant based medicine?

Jeebus, why it's all about that fucking junk all the fucking time?

errc says

Are you suggesting inner city blacks should arm themselves and stand their ground against an oppressive government looking to harass them and take away their freedom and liberty wrt access to plant based medicine?

actually, that would be perfectly OK

errc says

how has that worked in reality

Poorly, except may be once or twice in Appalachians. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

errc says

the same people claiming liberals are coming for their guns wind up saying we need a bigger more powerful State to fight back against “those” “criminals”. And then we all end up having our Rights and Liberties trampled and a bigger more intrusive Police State

That is true, however taking away of guns will result in the same State overreach. Both R and D like large and powerful State, but they want power of state applied in different areas.

I think what the elites are doing right now is attempting to make owning guns a moral wrong in a bid to first
1)reduce gun ownership percentage to a minority (small as possible)
2)repeal the 2nd Ammendment when gun ownership drops far enough

It’s a fairly Sophisticated long game, but people like this ex-judge are tipping their hand.

To combat this, gun owners must be vigilant! Have to train kids and teens in proper firearm use and safety. Have to encourage friends and coworkers to try a day at the shooting range. Once people understand that gun ownership is a responsibility as well as a right, and that sport shooting can be a lot of fun, the idea that being a gun owner is morally wrong will fade like Chinese t-shirt.

drB6 says

That is true, however taking away of guns will result in the same State overreach. Both R and D like large and powerful State, but they want power of state applied in different areas.

I don't believe anyone is arguing for the government to ban all firearms. That's a scare tactic used by the NRA and gun nuts.

HappyGilmore says

I don't believe anyone is arguing for the government to ban all firearms. That's a scare tactic used by the NRA and gun nuts.

Apparently you weren't paying attention on what was going on around the country last Saturday.

HappyGilmore says

I don't believe anyone is arguing for the government to ban all firearms. That's a scare tactic used by the NRA and gun nuts.

The trajectory goes in that direction and the parable of frog in hot water may be applicable.

I do not really believe whatever Govt tells me as they are well-known liars. Iraq had WMD, Obamacare is "affordable care" etc

errc says

You didn’t know that police performed raids? What is it you think they’re doing?

Coming in "spraying" as you claimed?

NO.

That's why I asked for the links to those stories. Sounds like the Wild West.

Hypocrites will end up in jail or a grave before we let them take our rights and fuck over our constitution and make this country a Commie Marxist Cesspool.

@Patrick why am i continuing to have to mark Snipers personal attacks as personal? I thought that was the job of the mods?

drB6 says

Poorly, except may be once or twice in Appalachians.

Another one: Battle of Athens, aka McMinn County War, when WW2 Vets confronted the Good Old Boys' Political Machine over Election Fraud.

Naturally the NYT was appalled that the common clay would question the authority of the Best Men, nevermind they were rigging all the elections in half the state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

errc says

Anything in recent history or are we pretending that the government only overstepped their boundaries once in the past 100 years?

How about the entire Civil Rights Movement being armed to the teeth?

I'm very much concerned with how the history of the southern freedom movement or civil rights movement is portrayed. And, I'm very conscious of the gaps in the history, and one important gap in the history, in the portrayal of the movement, is the role of guns in the movement. I worked in the South, I lived with families in the South. There was never a family I stayed with that didn't have a gun. I know from personal experience and the experiences of others, that guns kept people alive, kept communities safe and all you have to do to understand this is simply think of black people as human beings and they're gonna respond to terrorism the way anybody else would. ...The southern freedom movement has become so defined, the narrative of the movement has become so defined by non-violence that anything presented outside that narrative framework really isn't paid that much attention to. I like the quip that Julian Bond made...that really the way the public understands the civil rights movement can be boiled down to one sentence: Rosa sat down, Martin stood up, then the white folks saw the light and saved the day.

On Martin Luther King Jr.'s attitude about weapons...

If you look at the early period of his leadership in the civil rights movement, particularly the period of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, his household, as one person noted, was an arsenal, with guns all over the place. William Worthy, who was a journalist...tried to sit down in an armchair in Martin King's house and was warned by Bayard Rustin, who was with him, that he was about to sit down on a couple of guns. King was a man of the South, after all, and he responded to terrorism, he responded to violence the way most people in the South would be inclined to respond. So when the Klan...bombed his house in 1956, he went to the sheriff's office and applied for a gun permit to carry a concealed weapon. Now, he didn't get the permit...but Martin King always acknowledged — if you read his writings — the right to self-defense, armed self-defense.

https://www.npr.org/2014/06/05/319072156/guns-kept-people-alive-during-the-civil-rights-movement

The very first gun laws in this country targeted Blacks.

As did Ronnie Raygun in California, banning open carry.

Should we repeal bill of rights? Hell no!!!!

Aspirin is also plant based medicine. So is morphine. Isn't Penicillin bacteria digestive juices? And aspartame is E. Coli bile.

tovarichpeter says

Should we repeal the second amendment

Yes.
2nd Amendment is outdated. We don't need it in todays world. Other developed countries don't have a 2nd Amendment, and they seem to be doing quite well.
Those who think guns are needed to protect the citizen against the government, should be reminded the Government does not go after you unless you are breaking the law and are a threat to others. If they do go after you because you broke the law, those AR15's will not work against military weapons like tanks.
If you want to overthrow the government, you don't need guns. You can do so every 2 years with your vote. If your side still loses, that's too bad. The majority wins.
If you need a gun for protection, fine, get one. Apply for one, get thoroughly scrutinized to make sure you really need one, and are not a psycho. Pay the fees. Get insurance. Get mandatory training, and again, pay for it all.

errc says

@Patrick why am i continuing to have to mark Snipers personal attacks as personal? I thought that was the job of the mods?

Marking direct questions posed to you as personal because you won't back up the lies you're posting?

Maybe a suggestion would be to not post a narrative that can't be supported by facts and links.

Strategist says

Other developed countries don't have a 2nd Amendment, and they seem to be doing quite well.

Really, like Venezuela and North Korea? Isn't their government doing a swell job for the population that can't fight back?

Sniper says

Strategist says

Other developed countries don't have a 2nd Amendment, and they seem to be doing quite well.

Really, like Venezuela and North Korea? Isn't their government doing a swell job for the population that can't fight back?

They aren't developed countries.

Strategist says

Sniper says

Strategist says

Other developed countries don't have a 2nd Amendment, and they seem to be doing quite well.

Really, like Venezuela and North Korea? Isn't their government doing a swell job for the population that can't fight back?

They aren't developed countries.

Thank you for proving my point.

If they had a 2nd amendment, they wouldn't be pawns to their government, and would be a developed country.

Sniper says

They aren't developed countries.

Thank you for proving my point.

If they had a 2nd amendment, they wouldn't be pawns to their government, and would be a developed country.

These countries need guns to fight off their dictators, but the regular guns won't do. They need military grade weapons, training, and funds to to start up a real resistance. In the case of North Korea, even that would be an impossible task due to the control these commies have over the people.
What the people (slaves) in those countries really need is a Trump in the White House. Go Trump Go. Free those slaves.

Strategist says

Sniper says

They aren't developed countries.

Thank you for proving my point.

If they had a 2nd amendment, they wouldn't be pawns to their government, and would be a developed country.

These countries need guns to fight off their dictators, but the regular guns won't do. They need military grade weapons, training, and funds to to start up a real resistance

Interesting.

So, how have the goat herders in sandals with rusty AK47s been able to hold off the most powerful military in the world for like 15 years in Afghanistan?

Strategist says

What the people (slaves) in those countries really need is a Trump in the White House.

Who were the people who actually voted Trump into office? Oh, that's right, the 2nd amendment people who own guns.

Oops...

American revolution worked just fine without military anything. Defeated a professional army.

Strategist says

Sniper says

They aren't developed countries.

Thank you for proving my point.

If they had a 2nd amendment, they wouldn't be pawns to their government, and would be a developed country.

These countries need guns to fight off their dictators, but the regular guns won't do. They need military grade weapons, training, and funds to to start up a real resistance. In the case of North Korea, even that would be an impossible task due to the control these commies have over the people.
What the people (slaves) in those countries really need is a Trump in the White House. Go Trump Go. Free those slaves.

Sniper says

These countries need guns to fight off their dictators, but the regular guns won't do. They need military grade weapons, training, and funds to to start up a real resistance

Interesting.

So, how have the goat herders in sandals with rusty AK47s been able to hold off the most powerful military in the world for like 15 years in Afghanistan?

With bombs and suicide bombers supported by Pakistan.

Sniper says

Strategist says

What the people (slaves) in those countries really need is a Trump in the White House.

Who were the people who actually voted Trump into office? Oh, that's right, the 2nd amendment people who own guns.

Oops...

I thank them all. But they are not always right.

No.

FortWayne says

American revolution worked just fine without military anything. Defeated a professional army.

Yep, the best army in the world at the time.

Sensationalized student gun deaths make for a scary read and put everyone on edge.
Most could have been prevented with a more aggressive approach to social media postings and police interactions with the perps prior to the main event.
Maybe it's time to put some well funded resources into a new department that specifically targets the above and proactively responds before things get out of hand...

Patrick says

The 2nd Amendment exists exactly in order to protect that right to revolution against an oppressive elite, so no, the 2nd Amendment should not be repealed.

The personal destruction alcohol provides is an example to the state of what could happen with additional mind altering substances.
So they tend to go on the offensive against legalizing more of the same, regardless of whether it is better or worse than alcohol.

errc says

You tell me? Why is the State so tyrannically oppressive over plant based medicine?

This.
drB6 says

I do not really believe whatever Govt tells me as they are well-known liars

Strategist says

Government does not go after you unless you are breaking the law and are a threat to others

That is demonstrably false.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/botched-atlanta-drug-raid-killed-92-year-old-woman-family-awarded-49-million/

Kathyrn Johnston was 92-years-old when police carrying out a drug raid kicked in her door. She took a shot at the cops, and was gunned down by the return fire.

Now, the city of Atlanta has agreed to pay Johnston's family $4.9 million for her death in the botched 2006 raid.

Police had been acting on an informant's claim that he had bought narcotics at Johnston's home. But no drugs were found, and officers then planted drugs that had been recovered from a different raid.

There are hundreds of botched drug raid descriptions on internets, where police confuse addresses and burst into wrong place, occasionally killing innocent occupants, including kids and elderly.

I would award this pistol-packing grandmother a Congressional Medal of Honor and execute the guilty cops.

Edit: and after this and many other similar occasions perhaps we should start a movement to take guns away from cops.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/recreational-marijuana-faq
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/alcohol-effects#2

Who is in a position to say what should be prohibited.
What kind of power do you want your government to have?

errc says

In what ways is Cannabis similar to alcohol?

Should alcohol be prohibited?

BlueSardine says

What kind of power do you want your government to have?

Government should have no power to determine what substances I put in my body (after I turn 18) and I should have no power to demand money from government for ill effects from using those substances. Otherwise we can say that government owns my body. MY BODY MY CHOICE!!!

Nope.

I don't trust concentrated power and the ballot box has failed before. When that happens, the ammo box is the last resort.

HappyGilmore says

I don't believe anyone is arguing for the government to ban all firearms. That's a scare tactic used by the NRA and gun nuts.

drB6 says

Strategist says

Government does not go after you unless you are breaking the law and are a threat to others

That is demonstrably false.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/botched-atlanta-drug-raid-killed-92-year-old-woman-family-awarded-49-million/

Kathyrn Johnston was 92-years-old when police carrying out a drug raid kicked in her door. She took a shot at the cops, and was gunned down by the return fire.

Now, the city of Atlanta has agreed to pay Johnston's family $4.9 million for her death in the botched 2006 raid.

Police had been acting on an informant's claim that he had bought narcotics at Johnston's home. But no drugs were found, and officers then planted drugs that had been recovered from a different raid.

1. Mistakes will happen.
2. She had a gun to defend herself. Did it work against law enforcement?

I've spoken to my liberal friends at length about this issue.

The common belief that they seem to share is that the police will be there to protect them and the US government would never ever turn on them.

At the next sentence they will tell you that cops are racist and Trump is the next Hitler.