patrick.net

Patrick says

The US has also fucked up human lives for generations.

The Russian government is bad, but the US government no longer has any claim to the moral high ground.

FFS - Patrick.

The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close. Not the same sport, league or planet. We are talking 10,000 to 1 in body counts and death and destruction. The US didn't lock our people behind walls for 50+ years and send millions to Gulags.

Even Iraq and Afghanistan - the vast majority of the deaths were Muslims killing Muslims settling religious, sectarian and tribal scores. The US toppled the regimes in a few days using a scalpel. We just failed and keeping the Muslims from killing each other. It wasn't the US that was blowing up schools, mosques, government building and hospitals like we saw over and over again in Iraq and Afghanistan resulting in hundreds of deaths at a time.

The US didn't shell and lay siege to massive cities like the Russians are doing now in Ukraine either.

I get and agree with most of the posters here about alot of the bullshit with our deep-state and corrupt media. I totally understand the skepticism many have and don't want the US drawn into Ukraine.

But it seems like alot of sensible people on this forum have gotten radicalized and are now aping the same old anti-American Marxist prop - pretending that the US is equal or just as bad as what the USSR and Russia has done to the planet is fucking nonsense.

richwicks says

Cuban Missile crisis and that happened because the US was placing nuclear arms in Turkey. We've already gone through this bullshit before.

Right - 50 fucking years ago at the height of the Cold War!

It is 2022 and the Russians are no longer Commies - right?

WTF is Putin paranoid about in 2022? He gives 2 shits about human life as he is sending thousands of Russians into the Ukrainian wood chipper and cowardly using artillery on civilian centers because the Russian military is too weak to secure the cities - despite being right next door. So spare me the shit Russian claims about "Nazis" killing thousands in Donbass and Crimea justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Thank God for Russian nukes!
Otherwise Biden would be launching us into another pointless war just to defend his financial interests in Ukraine and his BioLabs where they were whipping up the next four or five pandemics.

Patrick says

We already had our spectacular mass failure of the vaxx, but the long-term increase in death and illness from the vaxx is still in progress and still censored by the corporate media.

I looked at the CDC numbers today and the deaths from the Wuhan for January EXCEED the deaths during the first peak in March 2020.

I wonder if these new Wuhan deaths are actually caused by the vax? Anecdotally, I know of three people that went to the hospital with the disease. All three were "fully vaxxed". Two died.

Crisis actors posing as Russian pilots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7UpswG_WrE&source=patrick.net

socal2 says

It is 2022 and the Russians are no longer Commies - right?

Nope, but we are...

We are communists. How blind are you?

socal2 says

WTF is Putin paranoid about in 2022?

I dunno, the 7 wars that the US has lied to start in the last 20 years? You're like "oh, PUTIN is being unreasonable".

What the fuck have any of these wars had to do with this nation? The US is lying about Assad using chemical weapons, they are there to steal oil through Genie Energy, and they are trying to remove Russia's only Middle Eastern military in Tartus.

Golly, what could Putin be paranoid about? Gee whiz. That's hard.

socal2 says

He gives 2 shits about human life as he is sending thousands of Russians into the Ukrainian wood chipper and cowardly using artillery on civilian centers because the Russian military is too weak to secure the cities

The US does this all the time. Ever see pictures of Syria, or Libya? I used to try to talk to Iraqis back in the naughts, they HATED Americans. Conversation ended when it was known I was an American. That's what our wars do, creates hatred, and devastates a country.

Why was the US blowing up Iraq? That war killed between 100,000 and 1,000,000 people - why? Wasn't over a fake weapons of mass destruction program. We know that.

socal2 says

So spare me the shit Russian claims about "Nazis" killing thousands in Donbass and Crimea justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Look, we have a president whose crackhead son is on the fucking BOD of Burisma for some reason. Why the fuck is Hunter Biden on the BOD of Burisma? He doesn't even speak the language. Apparently there's over a dozen biochemical WEAPONS labs in Ukraine now, what the fuck are they doing there?

Don't tell me you care about human life or what is going on in Ukraine has ANYTHING to do with human life. The US took it over in 2014, and has been building military weapons labs there, and importing armaments, on the border of Russia. Would this shit be happening if there wasn't a coup?

No.

So whose goddamned fault is this?

It's these assholes:



Chummy chummy fuck fucks.

Or more properly, their handlers. Who are they? Those are actors. I think Trump may have gone off script and done some improv, MAYBE. Hard to know.

You know how you're wrong about something - when you find yourself on the same side as CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NY Times, PBS, NPR, the intelligence agencies, the establishment of both parties, Hollywood celebrities, and the fucking deep state.

You are CLEARLY in the wrong. When have those mother fuckers been right, and about what, in the last 2 decades? Find that weapons of mass destruction yet? You're making an error. I have never seen these fucks be right in twenty years, maybe they are right THIS time, but I doubt it. That's not their MO - they're just fucking evil.

Look, I'm certain you're a decent person, have a good set of morals and beliefs, but remember propaganda is produced to deceive you - not educate you. Where is the propaganda pushing us? Anybody can be tricked.

I agree, this war is awful, all wars are, but the end of it is easy to gain - just keep Ukraine out of NATO make certain Russia retains their military base in Crimea, get rid of those US biological labs now. This is reasonable. Why won't Zelenskyy agree to it? He wants people to die, it's good propaganda. That's it. The US wants people to die, it's good propaganda. Zelenskyy is an obvious a puppet, it's not like the US overthrew the country and then said "oh well, let it go democratic and do what they want to do".

socal2 says

The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close. Not the same sport, league or planet. We are talking 10,000 to 1 in body counts and death and destruction. The US didn't lock our people behind walls for 50+ years and send millions to Gulags.

Ah, you mean back when they were being run by communists, and they had state enforced atheism? That nation is GONE.

Back then "the left" wanted "peace at any cost" but today, they want to make war with Russia. Why are the communist that run our nation now wanting to make war with a nation that is no longer communist?

socal2 says

Even Iraq and Afghanistan - the vast majority of the deaths were Muslims killing Muslims settling religious, sectarian and tribal scores. The US toppled the regimes in a few days using a scalpel.

Oh yeah, Operation Surgical Strike and Precision Operation - I thought they were called Operation Desert Storm and Shock and Awe. Must be that Mandela Effect..

The US doesn't do surgical strikes. It purposely destroys infrastructure, and puts the entire population into a completely desperate situation to make them capitulate. Julian Assage gave up his life for nothing.

socal2 says

The US didn't shell and lay siege to massive cities like the Russians are doing now in Ukraine either.

Look at Aleppo. Seriously. Go look at Tripoli.

Do you have any comprehension of what fucking sociopathic assholes control this nation?

Bill Clinton bombed a fucking pharmaceutical plant in Sudan JUST to distract from the testimony that Monica Lewinsky gave about giving him a blow job.

Al-Shifa was blown up on August 20, 1998.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

And that's the same exact date that Monica brought in her dress:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/specials/starr/testimony/lewinsky_2.html

It's estimated that something like 10 to 50 thousand people died as a result of that destruction because of a shortage of medication in one the poorest countries in the world.

None of our "leaders" give a fuck about human life. No leaders can afford to do it really. Russia has security concerns, and if that fucking puppet that the US has on their strings would just said "fine I won't join NATO!" all this shit and death goes away. Simple solution, but Zelenskyy won't do this, because he's been instructed not to.

socal2 says

The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close.

I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.

How many violent conflicts has the US started since WWII?




https://williamblum.org/intervention-map?source=patrick.net

Patrick says

I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.

Soviet Russia and Communist China SHOULD be condemned, but in the last 30 years, they have been relatively good where the US has gotten CONSIDERABLY worse.

And now that Russia is no longer communist - BIG PROBLEM for some reason.

And now that China isn't really communist anymore (a combo of fascism, free market, and some socialism) - BIG PROBLEM for some reason.

@socal2

Let me ask you a question.

Say that Zelensky agreed to allow Russia to continue to have their base in Crimea, let Crimea have another referendum (not hasty this time) to allow them to chose between being part of Russia or Ukraine or be independent, that the US biological weapons labs were removed, and that Ukraine would become neutral and agree not to host NATO weaponry, and work to make a peace accord with the Donbass and this was agreed.

Say that happened.

Would you be upset by this outcome? Do you think Russia or Ukrainians would be upset by this? How about the "Russian separatists" as our bullshit media calls them?

But our leaders would have been upset by this outcome. They are actively attempting to stymie a peace settlement although it's almost certain that Ukraine will lose. It's Zelenskyy that is preventing adult men from leaving to purposely cause bloodshed. He's encouraging civilians to take up arms - they're just be quickly killed, giving up their lives for no purpose that helps the country or their friends or family.

Who is the evil prolonging this tragedy?

Its our leaders. The same people that call us white supremacists, "terrorists", bigots, deplorables, criminals, scum. Who is the enemy?



Who is our enemy?



Do you have the temerity to identify it? They are a scary group, I'll admit that, but there's strength in numbers. Recognize your enemy.



Who is the criminal mafia in this world?




Here, I will leave you with this:

https://9gag.com/gag/avnnqGM

That's "precision surgical strikes" in Syria.

Be proud our you nation, but realize, we've been taken over and subverted. Sociopaths run this nation, and they are targeting us now. Enjoy your $7 gas? Do you think this is a mistake or a temporary error?

Patriotism is supporting your nation always and the government when it deserves it. Do you think it deserves it? After that last fucking hell they've put the population through for decades? Do they deserve it?

Let me be plain: we need all the help we can get, but there's a lot of people that confuse these psychopaths that run this government as their nation. They are two different things. There wouldn't be a war in Ukraine if the US didn't set the stage for it and look at the stage they are setting for US, me and you.

https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.

Patrick says

https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.

I heard earlier today (take with a grain of salt) that it was a maternity ward that's been closed down for years. Impossible to know what is true - it's not even worth speculating on in my opinion.

Patrick says

I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.

How many violent conflicts has the US started since WWII?

Patrick - it is not even remotely close. Come on man, this is crazy talk.

Again, see that tremendous reduction in death from all wars since America became a superpower and became World Cop. Sure America has "meddled" far outside it's borders, but the net ledger is positive. Not only in massive reduction of death from all wars, but also the tremendous reduction in extreme poverty world wide.

Besides, the vast majority of America's meddling since WWII was to combat Marxism and Islamism - two of the most fucked up and destructive ideologies in modern times.

I've heard that if you simply increase the dollars per day from $1.90 to $2.50, all those supposed gains disappear for benefits to those in extreme poverty.

socal2 says

Again, see that tremendous reduction in death from all wars since America became a superpower and became World Cop. Sure America has "meddled" far outside it's borders, but the net ledger is positive. Not only in massive reduction of death from all wars, but also the tremendous reduction in extreme poverty world wide.

We can't know what is true at this point with after we've been lied about a pandemic for 2 years.

Our government has zero credibility. You know this as well as I do.

Patrick says

https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.

We do know they lied about a school, it was closed for students, and the reservists used it as a marshalling point and were inhabiting the building. This was a couple of weeks ago, and the UA simultaneously claimed "Russia bombed a school!" while posting pictures of the UA troops taking over the building as a barracks/base the very same day.

richwicks says

The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.

It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time. It almost like playing wack-a-mole: smack it on the nose, it disappears, and then reappears in a different hole.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.

It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time. It almost like playing wack-a-mole: smack it on the nose, it disappears, and then reappears in a different hole.

He's right. This is not a full scale invasion and you know why. Putin wants donbass and crimea and a neutral Ukraine. It's going to be a long drawn out "war" at key points of the Ukraine. He may be a thug but certainly not a madman as western propaganda wants people to believe. Nobody wins without a diplomatic solution, certainly not Ukrainian citizens.

> mell

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying:
1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS
2. Bombing Donbass. It was Russia that started hybrid war in Donbass. He runs his mouth on and on about Ukraine bombing Donbass and not a peep about Donbass bombing Ukraine. When he talks about Ukraine bombing Donbass, he applies none of the critical filters regarding video (or other) materials that he applies to the other side.
3. Gives up Crimea. It already did. At least "for all practical purposes". Ukraine had no leverage to get Crimea back, and knew it. Ironically, Putin turned that script around. Now I can see a scenario in which Ukraine may get Crimea back. Because strategically, Russia is finished. Regardless of the outcome of this war.

Putin never wanted Donbass, as in "making it part of Russia". He wanted it to be a part of Ukraine, in the role of a festering splinter. That's what the hybrid was of the last 8 years was about.

Current demands are attempts to buy time and political leverage.

P.S. I already mentioned: richwick's points run in sync with those of Russian propaganda, in terms of the timeline. From "they won't attack" to "I don't understand why Ukrainians are sacrificing their lives" to "Russia just wants to be safe". Russian talking points are parroted with uncanny synchronization. This change in tune also indicate (to me) that their plan A didn't quite work out.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.

It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time.

Oh? Post a link to one of my points being debunked please. I don't remember this happening.

It's easy to post a link. You can do it like this:

https://www.patrick.net/post/1343825?160#comment-1824248

It's a lot easier to say that something is debonked (well to lie about it being debonked in truth) than to actually debunk it. I think everybody is pretty familiar with this type of bullshit.

What bothers me, but only a little, is I think you're absolutely full of shit, and have been more and more clear about this the more I interact with you. I'm being as direct as possible right now. You are full of shit. You're lying. I believe you to be a dishonest, dishonorable person but everybody should draw their own conclusions and not just adopt them from other people.

Patrick says

https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.

Russia already reacted. Regretfully, they haven't even internally synchronized their narrative. "Russia 1" and Solovyov (state-approved TV persona) gave conflicting messages: one said that it was Ukraine that bombed it, the other said that it was Russia but it was occupied by militant UkroNazis.

richwicks says

Oh? Post a link to one of my points being debunked please. I don't remember this happening.

I debunked NATO argument multiple times here. Are you saying that you've never seen it? Now you have.
richwicks says

I believe you to be a dishonest, dishonorable person but everybody should draw their own conclusions and not just adopt them from other people.

Of course you do. Getting your butt kicked has that affect of wishful mental retribution.

mostly reader says

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying:
1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS

Then have Ukraine agree not to join NATO and take away from Russia one of their demands, which you believe will never be met anyhow.

mostly reader says

2. Bombing Donbass. It was Russia that started hybrid war in Donbass. He runs his mouth on and on about Ukraine bombing Donbass and not a peep about Donbass bombing Ukraine. When he talks about Ukraine bombing Donbass, he applies none of the critical filters regarding video (or other) materials that he applies to the other side.

Stop the conflict in Donbass, and take away Russia's complaint about it. This is like the Israeli / Palestinian conflict in that retaliation is very selectively reported. End the conflict entirely and reduce it to police action rather than military action. Treat violent people as what they really are - not militias, but as criminals. That's what they are.

mostly reader says

3. Gives up Crimea. It already did. At least "for all practical purposes". Ukraine had no leverage to get Crimea back,

Then put it into writing in a treaty and strip Russia of yet another complaint and reason for this stupid conflict.

Russia will almost certainly achieve all their aims, so the people dying in this conflict, are only dying for propaganda purposes. It's clear to me that the US wants to restart the Cold War.

https://tass.com/politics/963868?source=patrick.net

Have you forgot about the United States seizing Russian property? I haven't. This stupid bullshit has been going on for a very long time. What purpose does this serve? It's just to aggravate Russia, it doesn't actually change anything. Assholes run my nation. They're just assholes and these assholes have driving up gasoline prices to $7 a gallon where I live. I'm tired of the assholes. Why aren't you?

mostly reader says

1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS

On that point - if Ukraine was to join NATO, Russia best invade before it does. Also during that 8 year time line Ukraine changed its Constitution removing a clause of strict neutrality and replacing it with verbiage that would allow it to join Western alliances. Just 3 weeks before Putin invaded, VP Kamala was in Europe making speeches encouraging Ukraine to join NATO.

richwicks says

Then have Ukraine agree not to join NATO

Why? NATO already demonstrated that it's not interested. Answer: because it's a BS demand.

richwicks says

Stop the conflict in Donbass, and take away Russia's complaint about it.

IT WAS RUSSIA THAT STARTED CONFLICT IN DONBASS AND ONLY RUSSIA COULD STOP IT
IT WAS RUSSIA THAT STARTED CONFLICT IN DONBASS AND ONLY RUSSIA COULD STOP IT
...
IT WAS RUSSIA THAT STARTED CONFLICT IN DONBASS AND ONLY RUSSIA COULD STOP IT

Repeat this until you reach enlightment.

richwicks says

Then put it into writing in a treaty and strip Russia of yet another complain and reason for this stupid conflict.

Russia annexed Crimea. Ukraine had no practical ways to get it back. Yet Putin starts war because Ukraine doesn't sign a treaty. Riight.

What else Ukraine can do to appease Putin? Blow him? Sounds reasonable.

Meanwhile, I found one pearl of your efforts. This thread is the perfect place to dissect and analyze your MO. Wait for it...

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Oh? Post a link to one of my points being debunked please. I don't remember this happening.

I debunked NATO argument multiple times here.

Well post links. You only have 262 posts.

https://www.patrick.net/user/mostly%20reader

You make claims you've debonked, show me where you have. Post links.

Russia has official complaints - they could be bullshit, just like the US often lies about why they go to war and make dishonest demands which are met and ignored anyhow. The demands of Russia are almost certain to be met, so what is the purpose of dragging out the war? If Russia is making false demands, like the US ALWAYS does, meet the demands and if the war continues regardless, it shows Russia to be full of shit, like the US was full of shit about Syria, Libya, and Iraq.

richwicks says

Well post links. You only have 262 posts.

Oh fuck. You don't even read what's been written directly to you. Here: https://patrick.net//post/1344006&#comment-1825559 Search for "obviously"

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Well post links. You only have 262 posts.

Oh fuck. You don't even read what's been written directly to you. Here: https://patrick.net//post/1344006&#comment-1825559 Search for "obviously"

And this post debonks "the NATO argument" how?

Ukraine can simply say, in writing "we have no intention of joining NATO for at least X number of years". But they refuse to do that.

The United States has a meat puppet as a pretend president. Zelenskyy is the same thing. If Zelenskyy wasn't a puppet, and was instead an actual leader, he's just agree to all of Russia's demands, and strip Russia of every single excuse they have for the invasion, and save a bunch of lives.

But he doesn't care, doesn't matter if he does. He's a puppet. He's just a fucking pile of meat with a CIA hand stuffed up his asshole, making his mouth move. They want death and destruction - good propaganda. The big fear our CIA goon squad has, is maybe the war would end if Ukraine agreed. Can't have that, that would lessen the propaganda.

That's that kind of rancid shit that runs this nation, and runs Ukraine.

richwicks says

And this post debonks "the NATO argument" how?

It. Asserts. That. NATO. Is. Not. Interested. This shouldn't even be contested. With Russia already having NATO countries at it's borders, it's an obvious pretext. Sign it just to reconfirm that it's a pretext? After Budapest Memorandum, any agreement signed with Russia may as well be signed on toilet paper. Because that will be it's final use.

And so, you just employed that wack-a-mole technique.

All that's needed is a letter from the NATO secretary or France and Germany to say "No NATO membership for Ukraine" plus a pledge not to join.

Ukraine HAD a Neutrality Pledge in their Constitution from Independence to prior to the 2014 Coup.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

And this post debonks "the NATO argument" how?

It. Asserts. That. NATO. Is. Not. Interested. This shouldn't even be contested.

Then put it in a fucking treaty and strip Russia of an excuse to go to war. Why do they refuse to do this very reasonable thing?

The reality of the situation is that Ukraine's puppet leadership, the NATO puppet leadership, and the US puppet leadership want people to die. They want to drag out this conflict as long as they possibly can. That's why they won't sign that agreement. People are prevented from leaving Ukraine, citizens are being encouraged to make molotov cocktails and get killed. Zelenskyy is doing everything he can to ensure the maximum number of civilians are killed.

The US has goddamned biological labs in Ukraine. Why? Why are there UNITED STATES biological labs in Ukraine, on the border of Russia?

We have domestic enemies, not foreign ones. That's why. They are bloodthirsty murderers. They were running a child rape ring through Epstein. They just love to be fucking evil. I'm sure the fucking psychopaths right now are doing lines of coke and fucking hookers dreaming of WWIII. They'd like nothing better.

mostly reader says

And so, you just employed that wack-a-mole technique.

Your assertions are meaningless, they are just your statements, your beliefs. Why won't Ukraine and NATO make a public statement with a signed document? Because they want as many people to die as possible, because as Eisenhower warned us, the MIC runs not just this country, but Europe too.


original link


It's these fuckers causing this.

This would be a 101 on how to detect one of the propaganda techniques.

Intro: most real-life situations have a large number of variables and moving parts. It's not always clear how they fit multi-dimentional world into a coherent picture based on incomplete and ambiguous data. Slight mis-interpretation of data points - a little bit to the right here, a little bit upwards there, skip this data point because it doesn't fit, stretch another one because it supports - and you get one pictures. Change the direction in which you move the points - and you get a different picture, which may also be consistent, yet be in conflict with the first one. That's what this technique does, it paints the picture by slight manipulation of data points. Lying by omission is quite popular with this approach.

Now, case in point: https://patrick.net/post/1343769&#comment-1826046 It's about that infamous intercepted conversation between Nuland and Pyatt, and conclusion by our resident "Russia-good-US-bad" trumpet:

> The US overthrew Ukraine in a coup. Nuland is indicating who the next leader of Ukraine will be, a month before the "revolution". There's no way she could have done this if the revolution was a revolution - it was a coup. The United States picked the next leader, and you're being intentionally naive and ignorant if you believe they had no sway in who the next leaders would be.

He points out that the conversation happened a month before the Maidan revolution. Which is indeed correct.

Here's what he doesn't mention:
- That unrest in Ukraine and demonstrations on Maidan started in 2013
- That by the time of this conversation, the political landscape of the opposition has already shaped out
- That (likely) Russian puppet Yanukovitch was already a political corpse

Here's what I gather on the surface of this conversation: the wheels were in motion, and US saw an opportunity in this new development. We inserted ourselves into this picture. Some may say that we shouldn't have, and I won't argue. That's not a discussion that I'd be having.

However, that's not his assertion. The assertion is about US overthrowing Ukraine, which is simply not in evidence. Not based on that chat.

You may suggest that it still doesn't look good. I agree with that. You may also suggest that our involvement started much earlier. That would be speculation by association, but I still wouldn't argue, except for one thing.

Here it is.

We now know that Nuland's line was compromised. WHERE THE FUCK ARE HER CONVERSATIONs THAT WOULD FIT THE TIMELINE OF THE BEGINNING OF THE UPRISING?? Where are the conversations which would incriminate us in starting the whole thing? Something going back to November 2013, or even prior? (edit: to be clear, Maidan started in Nov. 2013, not 2014)

Russia invited this question by de-facto disclosing that her phone was bugged.

None. Nada. Zilch. Apparently, this is the best that they had. THIS IS THE BEST THEY HAD! They couldn't produce a conversation which lead to Maidan in 2013. They couldn't produce a convesation which would explain how all those mentioned players - Yatsenyuk, Klitchko, others - got to the top of the movement. They only produced the conversation which discussed how we wanted to play/shuffle the cards in the landscape which already was there.

Which doesn't stop some unscrupulous minds from throwing around the "US revolt" theory left and right, where it fits and where it doesn't. Because "speculation by association".

Moral? Pay attention to small details, that's where most of manipulation happens. Pay even more attention to what they don't say. Because lying by omission may be quite powerful.

One way to turn truth into a lie.

mostly reader says

1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS

Until Russia gets a signed letter, it's a continuing threat. NATO members have conducted exercises in Ukraine just last year:
COSSACK MACE
https://foreignbrief.com/daily-news/ukraine-british-joint-military-exercise-cossack-mace-2021-concludes-today/?source=patrick.net
TRIDENT:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/ukraine-holds-military-drills-with-us-forces-nato-allies-2021-09-20/

2. Bombing Donbass. It was Russia that started hybrid war in Donbass. He runs his mouth on and on about Ukraine bombing Donbass and not a peep about Donbass bombing Ukraine. When he talks about Ukraine bombing Donbass, he applies none of the critical filters regarding video (or other) materials that he applies to the other side

Donbas left because of a Coup of an Elected Government - not just the President, but members of Parliament were hounded out by a mob. Guess which region had their MPs and Presidential choice removed? They decided it was time to "Stop the Steal" by leaving.

There was other fuckery, like Donbas-area police, military, and civil officers being sacked, unpaid, or locked out of national and regional offices illegally and without any process after the 2014 Coup.

mostly reader says

3. Gives up Crimea. It already did. At least "for all practical purposes". Ukraine had no leverage to get Crimea back, and knew it. Ironically, Putin turned that script around. Now I can see a scenario in which Ukraine may get Crimea back.

Official recognition/Surrendering Claims is a Big Deal. It means there is no excuse for Ukraine to start something OR, if it joins a foreign alliance, it can't claim it's OFFICIAL territory is being occupied, so it's defensive to call on friends to help take it back. Which it can legally do at any time without the formal "Quit Claim" (or in EUIV: "Revoke Claim")

Because strategically, Russia is finished. Regardless of the outcome of this war.

No offense, but this is an ignorant remark. No country the size in landmass and culture like Russia is 'finished'.

What I'm seeing is a long planned response, including reminding people that the USSR was mostly self-sufficient and including new alliances with Chinese Finance and Industry.

Europe and the US is too dependent on CHYna to sanction it meaningfully. That's why you've seen the US try to threaten India. But of course, Modi would say "If you're going to sanction me for not sanctioning, all you do is help China and show how unfair you are - where are these same sanctions on CHYna for not sanctioning?"

> AmericanKulak
It's simple:
- Do you deny that Russia started hybrid war in Donbass?
- Do you consider Russia to be a trustworthy partner who would abide by a signed treaty?
- Are you aware of the proclaimed goals of the Russian invasion?

mostly reader says

Intro: most real-life situations have a large number of variables and moving parts. It's not always clear how they fit multi-dimentional world into a coherent picture based on incomplete and ambiguous data. Slight mis-interpretation of data points - a little bit to the right here, a little bit upwards there, skip this data point because it doesn't fit, stretch another one because it supports - and you get one pictures. Change the direction in which you move the points - and you get a different picture, which may also be consistent, yet be in conflict with the first one. That's what this technique does, it paints the picture by slight manipulation of data points. Lying by omission is quite popular with this approach

What poppycock.

The truth is easy to ascertain because there's no contradictions in truth.

Lies are complicated, which is why you have to write a paragraph to explain why people shouldn't trust their lying ears. I have a little more faith in the reasoning of people, and I don't try to confuse that reasoning or question it.

Victoria Nuland was recorded a month before the CIA coup d'etat of Ukraine and in that recording she is openly discussing who the next "leader" of Ukraine would be - or the apparent leader. The CIA runs Ukraine just like they run the United States.

This:



is not our president. He's a meat puppet of the CIA - but this, obviously is.

richwicks says

What poppycock.

You didn't even read it, did you? Read it. Compare timelines. Not just one point, the entire timeline.

I explained why your "CIA coup" assertion is dishonest.

mostly reader says

> AmericanKulak
It's simple:
- Do you deny that Russia started hybrid war in Donbass?
- Do you consider Russia to be a trustworthy partner who would abide by a signed treaty?
- Are you aware of the proclaimed goals of the Russian invasion?

Russia responded to a Coup on a neighboring country that overthrew a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government, including non-pro-Western Parliament Members, not just the President.

Yes, Russia has abided by many treaties in the past. SALT and the anti-ABM treaty. You'll recall that trying to dance around those treaties with SDI and "Anti-Iranian" Missile Shields was done by the USA.

Yes, the goals are for a Neutral Ukraine and recognition of Crimea. As well as the Donbas, but that might be a point the Russians might give up in return for monitored Elections in Ukraine

Remember, Ukraine was Neutral by Constitutional Clause until the Coup of 2014, which resulted in a purge of Eastern Ukrainian MPs (and other officials) as well as the Majority-winning President.

AmericanKulak says

- Do you deny that Russia started hybrid war in Donbass?

Yes or no?

AmericanKulak says

Yes, Russia has abided by many treaties in the past.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can't make this up.
Righting it down.

"He cheated on me so many times. And I so many times was faithful to him!"

mostly reader says

Yes, Russia has abided by many treaties in the past. SALT and the anti-ABM treaty. You'll recall that trying to dance around those treaties with SDI and "Anti-Iranian" Missile Shields was done by the USA.

Yes, Russia has abided by many treaties in the past. SALT and the anti-ABM treaty. You'll recall that trying to dance around those treaties with SDI and "Anti-Iranian" Missile Shields was done by the USA.
mostly reader says

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can't make this up.

Ad hom.

Which Treaties has Russia broken? Note: Legally withdrawing from a treaty != not obeying it.

Here is a treaty we talked of leaving:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWrsggtpv7E
That wasn't a violation, that was and announcement legally withdrawing from it.

We didn't violate the treaty, we left it. Big difference.
The burden is on YOU to find the total number of treaties that Russia is signed onto, and which ones they clearly violated, and what the percentage or ratio was.

AmericanKulak says

Which Treaties has Russia broken?

Russia. Broke. Budapest Memorandum. I hope you are not going to say "it's a Memorandum, which makes it ok"

The one and the only. They backstabbed the country which they pledged to protect,.