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Thread For Exposing Blatant Propaganda

By Patrick follow Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 9:40am 2,445 views  200 comments           share      

https://spectatorworld.com/topic/two-wars-ukraine-propaganda-social-media/?source=patrick.net


Ukraine and the war for your mind
The conflict on the ground isn’t the only one — there’s plenty of propaganda afoot too

March 11, 2022

Deterrence works. Russia’s nukes are the only thing keeping the US from full-out war in Ukraine just six months after retreating from Afghanistan. The unprecedented propaganda effort by Ukraine and its helpers in the American mass media to drag the US and NATO directly into the fight has failed — so far. But the struggle — the one for your mind space — is not over.

To understand what follows, you have to wipe away a lot of bull being slung your way. Insanity is not the only explanation for Putin’s actions of the past few weeks. From a Russian standpoint, he is carrying out a rational political-military strategy in Ukraine, seizing Russian-speaking territory such as Donbas, demilitarizing eastern Ukraine by force, and most of all creating a physical buffer zone between his country’s southern border and NATO. That zone may end at the Dnieper River with a loop around Odessa, or it may end at the Polish border, depending on how smoothly things go on the ground and on what level of “back away” message Putin wishes to send NATO.

It’s unlikely that Putin is making the first moves toward some greater conquest. All the bad takes saying “if we don’t stop Putin now, he’ll invade Moldova/Estonia/Poland/all Europe just like Hitler” ignores that the German military in World War Two had some 18 million men under arms. The Russian army today has 1.3 million, the best of which are going to be in Ukraine for a while.

Every war has its “is the juice worth the squeeze” question. Is what you can realistically hope to achieve worth the cost of getting it? For Putin, that means solving his border problem at the cost of maybe a few thousand men and another dollop of weak sanctions. He understood the needs of Europe meant sanctions would never harm sales of the fossil fuels which make up most Russian exports. But nyet to Paypal for you tovarishch! Putin could also look to history and see how decades of sanctions have not changed much in Cuba, Venezuela, Iraq, Iran and North Korea.

Putin most importantly also knew NATO would not fight him on the ground for fear of starting a nuclear war. That is exactly what nukes are for — and is the history of the Cold War in a sentence. Having nukes allows a country to do certain things any way it wants because its actions stay below the threshold of risking atomic war. This is why the US could destroy Gaddafi and Saddam (no nukes) and why the US will never attack North Korea (nukes). Under US pressure, Ukraine in 1994 relinquished the nukes it inherited from the former Soviet Union, enabling the invasion here in 2022.

Being a nuclear superpower makes things easier; the US can fight all over Central America and the Middle East, and Russia in the ’Stans, Crimea and now Ukraine, and none of that is important enough for the other side to consider using nukes to stop it. It is not like America does not know how to step away from a fight which isn’t ours: Crimea, Chechnya, Rwanda, Hungary ’56, Czechoslovakia ’68, initially Afghanistan ’79, even to a certain extent in Syria 2016. Putin knows that. Biden knows that. NATO knows that. Ukraine, however, still thinks it can change the game.

Ukraine knew on Day One it didn’t have enough men or weapons to defeat the Russians. Its only hope to remain a unified nation (it is easy to imagine a divided Ukraine, Western Zone and Russian Eastern Zone) is outside help. A no-fly zone, some airstrikes to blunt Russian advances. Maybe some of those Polish/NATO pilots planning to ferry F-16s to Ukraine stay to fly them in combat? Something, anything.

That’s why America is being blitzed with Ukrainian propaganda, and your brother-in-law is ready to head to Europe with his never-cleaned hunting rifle. The goal is to change public opinion such that a weak guy like Joe Biden starts to doubt himself. The goal is get Biden to take that Pentagon meeting laying out options for some limited bombing, or to listen to those analysts saying the US could set up a small no-fly zone on Ukraine’s western edge to facilitate humanitarian aid. Drop in some Special Forces. Something, anything.

The purpose of the propaganda is to get Biden to sign off on something hopefully small enough that it falls below the threshold of provoking a nuclear response. A risky and delicate tasking. The bad news is Ukrainian propaganda is working. A non-partisan 74 percent of Americans say NATO should impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine. And that’s even as we are just getting started.

A quick propaganda recap. We’ve had the hero phase with the non-existent Ghost of Kyiv and the supermodels with guns. We’ve had the Russians-are-going-to-kill-us-all phase, with the faux threat of invasion to the West and the faux scare the Russians were going to create a Chernobyl-like nuclear accident by shelling a power plant. We are currently moving through the “not verifiable atrocities” phase. Alongside this is beefcake talk about Zelensky, the likes of which we haven’t seen since before the cancellations of Andrew Cuomo and Michael Avenatti. The fact-checking mania of the Covid era is in the dustbin of history as American media removes all the filters on pro-Ukrainian content.


The quality of the propaganda is not important (any scrap metal on snowy ground is breaking news of another Russian helo down, even if the metal has “Acme Junk Pile” written on it). The quantity is important, the attempt to overwhelm American mind space to the point where logic is shoved into the back corner. There is a growing cottage industry of “experts” explaining how to can go to war without going to THAT kind of war. Dissenting voices are few, and are often labeled as “Putin lovers,” with late night hosts hurling homophobic slurs at them like high school kids.

It all sounds silly when the effect of propaganda is to convince Americans higher gas prices are the cost of freedom, or booking an Airbnb they’ll never stay at will save Ukraine, or refusing Russian dressing on a salad. But it is deadly serious. There are two battles now playing out over Ukraine. The one on the ground — and the one on your social media seeking to drag America into the mud.

Only half a year after the sad ending in Afghanistan, it is stunning to watch America again contemplate going to war for some abstract purpose far removed from our own core interests. And this time it is the risk of a nuclear exchange to remind us of our mistake, not just an inglorious departure from Kabul.


Comments 1 - 40 of 200   Next »    Last »

1   AmericanKulak   2022 Mar 11, 9:49am  

Great piece, thanks Patrick

Patrick says
Only half a year after the sad ending in Afghanistan, it is stunning to watch America again contemplate going to war for some abstract purpose far removed from our own core interests. And this time it is the risk of a nuclear exchange to remind us of our mistake, not just an inglorious departure from Kabul.


The homeland is torn apart by CRT, BLM, Runaway Spending, and WEF manipulation, and coming just months after an pathetic withdrawal from 20 year Afghanistan which resulted in the Status Quo Antebellum with the Taliban running the show...

We're told we can get involved in Ukraine.

Absolute hubris and danger.
2   HunterTits   2022 Mar 11, 10:01am  

@Patrick

How does one bulk post every fucking thing CNN, MSNBC, NYTimes, etc have published/aired over the past 25+ years to this thread?
3   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 10:06am  

Thank God there is no function for that.
4   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 10:06am  

Propaganda can also be by deliberate omission of significant facts.

For weeks, day after day stories in the MSM about Ukrainians fleeing the Russians. Can you remember ever hearing anything about ethnic Russians fleeing from the Ukrainians in 2014 and 2015? There were over 2 million of them.


https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2015/7/24/ukraine-worlds-unseen-refugee-crisis?source=patrick.net
6   komputodo   2022 Mar 11, 11:01am  

How many new covid cases this week? The ukraine narrative is working. Fauci should be locked up!. Hey what happened to Fauci? Who cares? WW3 is going to start.
7   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 11:09am  

Lol, exactly.

I wonder if the news in highly-vaxxed Singapore or New Zealand is talking about the utter failure of the vaxx:






We already had our spectacular mass failure of the vaxx, but the long-term increase in death and illness from the vaxx is still in progress and still censored by the corporate media.
8   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 11:16am  

Patrick says
Propaganda can also be by deliberate omission of significant facts.


Russia has twice in the last century been invaded through Ukraine. Anybody in our "news" bother to remind us of that?

Russia has been asking for 15 years that Ukraine remain neutral and not to allow NATO within their borders.

Ukraine's current government was created by a US coup d'etat.

All the deaths will be pointless, since Ukraine will not be allowed into NATO anyhow, because Europe isn't willing to go to war over Ukraine. This war is entirely pointless and is only happening so that it can be used as propaganda to demonize Russia.
9   socal2   2022 Mar 11, 11:30am  

richwicks says
Russia has twice in the last century been invaded through Ukraine. Anybody in our "news" bother to remind us of that?


Russia held Ukraine and a huge chunk of Eastern Europe behind a fucking concrete wall for nearly half a century stunting generations of people to the failures of Totalitarian Marxism while sending millions to the Gulag. (Not to mention the millions killed in the Ukraine by Stalin during the 1930's Red Famine)

They also spread their Marxist poison to all corners of the world (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South/Central America) fucking up more human life for generations.

Assuming you are older than 20 - do you have no memory of this?

Or is all that history just fake news like all of the Marxist professors in US Academia claim?
10   mell   2022 Mar 11, 11:39am  

socal2 says
richwicks says
Russia has twice in the last century been invaded through Ukraine. Anybody in our "news" bother to remind us of that?


Russia held Ukraine and a huge chunk of Eastern Europe behind a fucking concrete wall for nearly half a century stunting generations of people to the failures of Totalitarian Marxism while sending millions to the Gulag. (Not to mention the millions killed in the Ukraine by Stalin during the 1930's Red Famine)

They also spread their Marxist poison to all corners of the world (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South/Central America) fucking up more human life for generations.

Assuming you are older than 20 - do you have no memory of this?

Or is all that history just fake news like all of the Marxist professors in US Academia claim?


That may be true but Russia is by no means Marxist today and hasn't been in a long time. Also it's not an excuse to remove leaders if they run shitty ideologies or you would have to remove many current leaders and cause many wars. Like invading Canada and removing trudeau,nk, much of the middle east, etc. Politics and diplomacy means having to deal with shit in a responsible and strategical manner.
11   Ceffer   2022 Mar 11, 11:52am  

So. Obama and Biden simply became gleeful, willing agents to aid and abet the Swiss Octagon and the CIA to genocide the Slavs with bioterror weapons. What's wrong with that? As long as they got they's chilluns in tunnels 'n drugs 'n adrenochrome factories 'n arms profits 'n money laundering to shore up their bankrupt DC, they's be happy campers. Such elite world strategists, always working for the welfare of humanity.

We all know that constructive Hegelian Genocide is the key to the surviving Human Race marching to future glories!
12   socal2   2022 Mar 11, 11:55am  

mell says
Politics and diplomacy means having to deal with shit in a responsible and strategical manner.


Agreed - but Putin invading Ukraine and getting tens of thousands of people killed and threatening nukes and WWIII is not a "responsible or strategic" move to counter the so-called "threat" of Ukraine having closer economic ties to the EU and the US.

There is no historical, moral or even strategic justification for this level of violence and mayhem perpetrated by Putin.

As you say, Russia is no longer a full-bore Communist regime like the nutters in North Korea keeping people locked behind prison walls. Russia has slowly opened up to society freeing their former Commie slave colonies in Eastern Europe and letting the Russian people to travel freely to the West and integrate into the wider economy.

So WTF is Putin doing now other than killing thousands of people and showing the world his military is 3rd rate?
13   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 12:43pm  

socal2 says
They also spread their Marxist poison to all corners of the world (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South/Central America) fucking up more human life for generations.


The US lost all credibility after the fraudulent WMD claims and resulting invasion of Iraq in which something like half a million Iraqis died - and this after some nutty Saudis attacked America on 9/11 with clear support from their government. Saudi Arabia got away with that crime scot free.

The US has also fucked up human lives for generations.

The Russian government is bad, but the US government no longer has any claim to the moral high ground.
15   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 1:31pm  

socal2 says
richwicks says
Russia has twice in the last century been invaded through Ukraine. Anybody in our "news" bother to remind us of that?


Russia held Ukraine and a huge chunk of Eastern Europe behind a fucking concrete wall for nearly half a century stunting generations of people to the failures of Totalitarian Marxism while sending millions to the Gulag. (Not to mention the millions killed in the Ukraine by Stalin during the 1930's Red Famine)

They also spread their Marxist poison to all corners of the world (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South/Central America) fucking up more human life for generations.

Assuming you are older than 20 - do you have no memory of this?


I'm 50 but who created the Bolshevik revolution? I might be able to pass for 20, if I had been addicted to crack and crystal meth starting at 5 years old.

https://rielpolitik.com/2020/01/26/hidden-history-who-financed-bolshevik-revolution/?source=patrick.net

They're trying to do it to us you realize. I keep telling you, our enemies are domestic, not foreign. Think I'm joking?
16   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 1:34pm  

socal2 says
mell says
Politics and diplomacy means having to deal with shit in a responsible and strategical manner.


Agreed - but Putin invading Ukraine and getting tens of thousands of people killed and threatening nukes and WWIII is not a "responsible or strategic" move to counter the so-called "threat" of Ukraine having closer economic ties to the EU and the US.


The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.

You KNOW this is going to be the outcome anyhow, they know it. The people being killed are being killed for PROPAGDANDA purposes. That's it. The more people that die in this (well Ukrainians anyhow) the better the propaganda for the United States.

Let's just be ruthlessly honest about this.

socal2 says
There is no historical, moral or even strategic justification for this level of violence and mayhem perpetrated by Putin.


Cuban Missile crisis and that happened because the US was placing nuclear arms in Turkey. We've already gone through this bullshit before.

Why the fuck is NATO constantly expanding? It's just stupid. You're happy to pay for it, bankrupt yourself and your children and your country to do it though.
17   socal2   2022 Mar 11, 1:52pm  

Patrick says
The US has also fucked up human lives for generations.

The Russian government is bad, but the US government no longer has any claim to the moral high ground.


FFS - Patrick.

The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close. Not the same sport, league or planet. We are talking 10,000 to 1 in body counts and death and destruction. The US didn't lock our people behind walls for 50+ years and send millions to Gulags.

Even Iraq and Afghanistan - the vast majority of the deaths were Muslims killing Muslims settling religious, sectarian and tribal scores. The US toppled the regimes in a few days using a scalpel. We just failed and keeping the Muslims from killing each other. It wasn't the US that was blowing up schools, mosques, government building and hospitals like we saw over and over again in Iraq and Afghanistan resulting in hundreds of deaths at a time.

The US didn't shell and lay siege to massive cities like the Russians are doing now in Ukraine either.

I get and agree with most of the posters here about alot of the bullshit with our deep-state and corrupt media. I totally understand the skepticism many have and don't want the US drawn into Ukraine.

But it seems like alot of sensible people on this forum have gotten radicalized and are now aping the same old anti-American Marxist prop - pretending that the US is equal or just as bad as what the USSR and Russia has done to the planet is fucking nonsense.
18   socal2   2022 Mar 11, 1:58pm  

richwicks says
Cuban Missile crisis and that happened because the US was placing nuclear arms in Turkey. We've already gone through this bullshit before.


Right - 50 fucking years ago at the height of the Cold War!

It is 2022 and the Russians are no longer Commies - right?

WTF is Putin paranoid about in 2022? He gives 2 shits about human life as he is sending thousands of Russians into the Ukrainian wood chipper and cowardly using artillery on civilian centers because the Russian military is too weak to secure the cities - despite being right next door. So spare me the shit Russian claims about "Nazis" killing thousands in Donbass and Crimea justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
19   Shaman   2022 Mar 11, 3:44pm  

Thank God for Russian nukes!
Otherwise Biden would be launching us into another pointless war just to defend his financial interests in Ukraine and his BioLabs where they were whipping up the next four or five pandemics.
20   Onvacation   2022 Mar 11, 3:51pm  

Patrick says
We already had our spectacular mass failure of the vaxx, but the long-term increase in death and illness from the vaxx is still in progress and still censored by the corporate media.

I looked at the CDC numbers today and the deaths from the Wuhan for January EXCEED the deaths during the first peak in March 2020.

I wonder if these new Wuhan deaths are actually caused by the vax? Anecdotally, I know of three people that went to the hospital with the disease. All three were "fully vaxxed". Two died.
22   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 4:04pm  

socal2 says
It is 2022 and the Russians are no longer Commies - right?


Nope, but we are...

We are communists. How blind are you?

socal2 says
WTF is Putin paranoid about in 2022?


I dunno, the 7 wars that the US has lied to start in the last 20 years? You're like "oh, PUTIN is being unreasonable".

What the fuck have any of these wars had to do with this nation? The US is lying about Assad using chemical weapons, they are there to steal oil through Genie Energy, and they are trying to remove Russia's only Middle Eastern military in Tartus.

Golly, what could Putin be paranoid about? Gee whiz. That's hard.

socal2 says
He gives 2 shits about human life as he is sending thousands of Russians into the Ukrainian wood chipper and cowardly using artillery on civilian centers because the Russian military is too weak to secure the cities


The US does this all the time. Ever see pictures of Syria, or Libya? I used to try to talk to Iraqis back in the naughts, they HATED Americans. Conversation ended when it was known I was an American. That's what our wars do, creates hatred, and devastates a country.

Why was the US blowing up Iraq? That war killed between 100,000 and 1,000,000 people - why? Wasn't over a fake weapons of mass destruction program. We know that.

socal2 says
So spare me the shit Russian claims about "Nazis" killing thousands in Donbass and Crimea justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine.


Look, we have a president whose crackhead son is on the fucking BOD of Burisma for some reason. Why the fuck is Hunter Biden on the BOD of Burisma? He doesn't even speak the language. Apparently there's over a dozen biochemical WEAPONS labs in Ukraine now, what the fuck are they doing there?

Don't tell me you care about human life or what is going on in Ukraine has ANYTHING to do with human life. The US took it over in 2014, and has been building military weapons labs there, and importing armaments, on the border of Russia. Would this shit be happening if there wasn't a coup?

No.

So whose goddamned fault is this?

It's these assholes:



Chummy chummy fuck fucks.

Or more properly, their handlers. Who are they? Those are actors. I think Trump may have gone off script and done some improv, MAYBE. Hard to know.

You know how you're wrong about something - when you find yourself on the same side as CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NY Times, PBS, NPR, the intelligence agencies, the establishment of both parties, Hollywood celebrities, and the fucking deep state.

You are CLEARLY in the wrong. When have those mother fuckers been right, and about what, in the last 2 decades? Find that weapons of mass destruction yet? You're making an error. I have never seen these fucks be right in twenty years, maybe they are right THIS time, but I doubt it. That's not their MO - they're just fucking evil.

Look, I'm certain you're a decent person, have a good set of morals and beliefs, but remember propaganda is produced to deceive you - not educate you. Where is the propaganda pushing us? Anybody can be tricked.

I agree, this war is awful, all wars are, but the end of it is easy to gain - just keep Ukraine out of NATO make certain Russia retains their military base in Crimea, get rid of those US biological labs now. This is reasonable. Why won't Zelenskyy agree to it? He wants people to die, it's good propaganda. That's it. The US wants people to die, it's good propaganda. Zelenskyy is an obvious a puppet, it's not like the US overthrew the country and then said "oh well, let it go democratic and do what they want to do".
23   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 4:29pm  

socal2 says
The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close. Not the same sport, league or planet. We are talking 10,000 to 1 in body counts and death and destruction. The US didn't lock our people behind walls for 50+ years and send millions to Gulags.


Ah, you mean back when they were being run by communists, and they had state enforced atheism? That nation is GONE.

Back then "the left" wanted "peace at any cost" but today, they want to make war with Russia. Why are the communist that run our nation now wanting to make war with a nation that is no longer communist?

socal2 says
Even Iraq and Afghanistan - the vast majority of the deaths were Muslims killing Muslims settling religious, sectarian and tribal scores. The US toppled the regimes in a few days using a scalpel.


Oh yeah, Operation Surgical Strike and Precision Operation - I thought they were called Operation Desert Storm and Shock and Awe. Must be that Mandela Effect..

The US doesn't do surgical strikes. It purposely destroys infrastructure, and puts the entire population into a completely desperate situation to make them capitulate. Julian Assage gave up his life for nothing.

socal2 says
The US didn't shell and lay siege to massive cities like the Russians are doing now in Ukraine either.


Look at Aleppo. Seriously. Go look at Tripoli.

Do you have any comprehension of what fucking sociopathic assholes control this nation?

Bill Clinton bombed a fucking pharmaceutical plant in Sudan JUST to distract from the testimony that Monica Lewinsky gave about giving him a blow job.

Al-Shifa was blown up on August 20, 1998.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

And that's the same exact date that Monica brought in her dress:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/specials/starr/testimony/lewinsky_2.html

It's estimated that something like 10 to 50 thousand people died as a result of that destruction because of a shortage of medication in one the poorest countries in the world.

None of our "leaders" give a fuck about human life. No leaders can afford to do it really. Russia has security concerns, and if that fucking puppet that the US has on their strings would just said "fine I won't join NATO!" all this shit and death goes away. Simple solution, but Zelenskyy won't do this, because he's been instructed not to.
24   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 4:33pm  

socal2 says
The US is not perfect, but compared to the mountains of dead people the Totalitarians and Communists in Russia and China have piled up since WWII - it is not even close.


I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.

How many violent conflicts has the US started since WWII?




https://williamblum.org/intervention-map?source=patrick.net
25   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 4:38pm  

Patrick says
I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.


Soviet Russia and Communist China SHOULD be condemned, but in the last 30 years, they have been relatively good where the US has gotten CONSIDERABLY worse.

And now that Russia is no longer communist - BIG PROBLEM for some reason.

And now that China isn't really communist anymore (a combo of fascism, free market, and some socialism) - BIG PROBLEM for some reason.
26   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 5:08pm  

@socal2

Let me ask you a question.

Say that Zelensky agreed to allow Russia to continue to have their base in Crimea, let Crimea have another referendum (not hasty this time) to allow them to chose between being part of Russia or Ukraine or be independent, that the US biological weapons labs were removed, and that Ukraine would become neutral and agree not to host NATO weaponry, and work to make a peace accord with the Donbass and this was agreed.

Say that happened.

Would you be upset by this outcome? Do you think Russia or Ukrainians would be upset by this? How about the "Russian separatists" as our bullshit media calls them?

But our leaders would have been upset by this outcome. They are actively attempting to stymie a peace settlement although it's almost certain that Ukraine will lose. It's Zelenskyy that is preventing adult men from leaving to purposely cause bloodshed. He's encouraging civilians to take up arms - they're just be quickly killed, giving up their lives for no purpose that helps the country or their friends or family.

Who is the evil prolonging this tragedy?

Its our leaders. The same people that call us white supremacists, "terrorists", bigots, deplorables, criminals, scum. Who is the enemy?



Who is our enemy?



Do you have the temerity to identify it? They are a scary group, I'll admit that, but there's strength in numbers. Recognize your enemy.



Who is the criminal mafia in this world?




Here, I will leave you with this:

https://9gag.com/gag/avnnqGM

That's "precision surgical strikes" in Syria.

Be proud our you nation, but realize, we've been taken over and subverted. Sociopaths run this nation, and they are targeting us now. Enjoy your $7 gas? Do you think this is a mistake or a temporary error?

Patriotism is supporting your nation always and the government when it deserves it. Do you think it deserves it? After that last fucking hell they've put the population through for decades? Do they deserve it?

Let me be plain: we need all the help we can get, but there's a lot of people that confuse these psychopaths that run this government as their nation. They are two different things. There wouldn't be a war in Ukraine if the US didn't set the stage for it and look at the stage they are setting for US, me and you.
27   Patrick   2022 Mar 11, 5:36pm  

https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.
28   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 5:39pm  

Patrick says
https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.


I heard earlier today (take with a grain of salt) that it was a maternity ward that's been closed down for years. Impossible to know what is true - it's not even worth speculating on in my opinion.
29   socal2   2022 Mar 11, 6:11pm  

Patrick says
I think it is close, and US may well be worse than Russia or China.

How many violent conflicts has the US started since WWII?


Patrick - it is not even remotely close. Come on man, this is crazy talk.

Again, see that tremendous reduction in death from all wars since America became a superpower and became World Cop. Sure America has "meddled" far outside it's borders, but the net ledger is positive. Not only in massive reduction of death from all wars, but also the tremendous reduction in extreme poverty world wide.

Besides, the vast majority of America's meddling since WWII was to combat Marxism and Islamism - two of the most fucked up and destructive ideologies in modern times.









30   Misc   2022 Mar 11, 7:41pm  

I've heard that if you simply increase the dollars per day from $1.90 to $2.50, all those supposed gains disappear for benefits to those in extreme poverty.
31   richwicks   2022 Mar 11, 8:35pm  

socal2 says
Again, see that tremendous reduction in death from all wars since America became a superpower and became World Cop. Sure America has "meddled" far outside it's borders, but the net ledger is positive. Not only in massive reduction of death from all wars, but also the tremendous reduction in extreme poverty world wide.


We can't know what is true at this point with after we've been lied about a pandemic for 2 years.

Our government has zero credibility. You know this as well as I do.
32   AmericanKulak   2022 Mar 11, 9:09pm  

Patrick says
https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.


We do know they lied about a school, it was closed for students, and the reservists used it as a marshalling point and were inhabiting the building. This was a couple of weeks ago, and the UA simultaneously claimed "Russia bombed a school!" while posting pictures of the UA troops taking over the building as a barracks/base the very same day.
33   mostly reader   2022 Mar 12, 9:15am  

richwicks says
The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.
It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time. It almost like playing wack-a-mole: smack it on the nose, it disappears, and then reappears in a different hole.
34   mell   2022 Mar 12, 11:14am  

mostly reader says
richwicks says
The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.
It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time. It almost like playing wack-a-mole: smack it on the nose, it disappears, and then reappears in a different hole.


He's right. This is not a full scale invasion and you know why. Putin wants donbass and crimea and a neutral Ukraine. It's going to be a long drawn out "war" at key points of the Ukraine. He may be a thug but certainly not a madman as western propaganda wants people to believe. Nobody wins without a diplomatic solution, certainly not Ukrainian citizens.
35   mostly reader   2022 Mar 12, 11:46am  

> mell

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying:
1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS
2. Bombing Donbass. It was Russia that started hybrid war in Donbass. He runs his mouth on and on about Ukraine bombing Donbass and not a peep about Donbass bombing Ukraine. When he talks about Ukraine bombing Donbass, he applies none of the critical filters regarding video (or other) materials that he applies to the other side.
3. Gives up Crimea. It already did. At least "for all practical purposes". Ukraine had no leverage to get Crimea back, and knew it. Ironically, Putin turned that script around. Now I can see a scenario in which Ukraine may get Crimea back. Because strategically, Russia is finished. Regardless of the outcome of this war.

Putin never wanted Donbass, as in "making it part of Russia". He wanted it to be a part of Ukraine, in the role of a festering splinter. That's what the hybrid was of the last 8 years was about.

Current demands are attempts to buy time and political leverage.

P.S. I already mentioned: richwick's points run in sync with those of Russian propaganda, in terms of the timeline. From "they won't attack" to "I don't understand why Ukrainians are sacrificing their lives" to "Russia just wants to be safe". Russian talking points are parroted with uncanny synchronization. This change in tune also indicate (to me) that their plan A didn't quite work out.
36   richwicks   2022 Mar 12, 12:14pm  

mostly reader says
richwicks says
The war ends as soon as Ukraine agrees not to join NATO, quits bombing Donbass, and gives up Crimea.
It doesn't bother you that your points been debunked time after time.


Oh? Post a link to one of my points being debunked please. I don't remember this happening.

It's easy to post a link. You can do it like this:

https://www.patrick.net/post/1343825?offset=160#comment-1824248

It's a lot easier to say that something is debonked (well to lie about it being debonked in truth) than to actually debunk it. I think everybody is pretty familiar with this type of bullshit.

What bothers me, but only a little, is I think you're absolutely full of shit, and have been more and more clear about this the more I interact with you. I'm being as direct as possible right now. You are full of shit. You're lying. I believe you to be a dishonest, dishonorable person but everybody should draw their own conclusions and not just adopt them from other people.
37   mostly reader   2022 Mar 12, 12:14pm  

Patrick says
https://technofog.substack.com/p/ukraine-maternity-hospital-shelling?s=r&source=patrick.net

Not clear what happened there. Ukraine has a big motive to prevaricate.
Russia already reacted. Regretfully, they haven't even internally synchronized their narrative. "Russia 1" and Solovyov (state-approved TV persona) gave conflicting messages: one said that it was Ukraine that bombed it, the other said that it was Russia but it was occupied by militant UkroNazis.
38   mostly reader   2022 Mar 12, 12:17pm  

richwicks says
Oh? Post a link to one of my points being debunked please. I don't remember this happening.
I debunked NATO argument multiple times here. Are you saying that you've never seen it? Now you have.
richwicks says
I believe you to be a dishonest, dishonorable person but everybody should draw their own conclusions and not just adopt them from other people.

Of course you do. Getting your butt kicked has that affect of wishful mental retribution.
39   richwicks   2022 Mar 12, 12:29pm  

mostly reader says

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying:
1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS


Then have Ukraine agree not to join NATO and take away from Russia one of their demands, which you believe will never be met anyhow.

mostly reader says
2. Bombing Donbass. It was Russia that started hybrid war in Donbass. He runs his mouth on and on about Ukraine bombing Donbass and not a peep about Donbass bombing Ukraine. When he talks about Ukraine bombing Donbass, he applies none of the critical filters regarding video (or other) materials that he applies to the other side.


Stop the conflict in Donbass, and take away Russia's complaint about it. This is like the Israeli / Palestinian conflict in that retaliation is very selectively reported. End the conflict entirely and reduce it to police action rather than military action. Treat violent people as what they really are - not militias, but as criminals. That's what they are.

mostly reader says
3. Gives up Crimea. It already did. At least "for all practical purposes". Ukraine had no leverage to get Crimea back,


Then put it into writing in a treaty and strip Russia of yet another complaint and reason for this stupid conflict.

Russia will almost certainly achieve all their aims, so the people dying in this conflict, are only dying for propaganda purposes. It's clear to me that the US wants to restart the Cold War.

https://tass.com/politics/963868?source=patrick.net

Have you forgot about the United States seizing Russian property? I haven't. This stupid bullshit has been going on for a very long time. What purpose does this serve? It's just to aggravate Russia, it doesn't actually change anything. Assholes run my nation. They're just assholes and these assholes have driving up gasoline prices to $7 a gallon where I live. I'm tired of the assholes. Why aren't you?
40   HeadSet   2022 Mar 12, 12:35pm  

mostly reader says
1. NATO. NATO had >8 year to enroll Ukraine. It didn't happen. I call BS

On that point - if Ukraine was to join NATO, Russia best invade before it does. Also during that 8 year time line Ukraine changed its Constitution removing a clause of strict neutrality and replacing it with verbiage that would allow it to join Western alliances. Just 3 weeks before Putin invaded, VP Kamala was in Europe making speeches encouraging Ukraine to join NATO.

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