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An Antidote to Corporate Media
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elliemae
2009 Sep 16, 11:13pm
Agreed. We have a beautiful country, where people can say pretty much whatever they want. They can act like asses without being arrested, receive minimal healthcare in the ER, live however they want... And they can be racists with the same protections as the rest of us... People in our prisons have a better lifestyle than do many citizens of third world countries.
But there are other countries that have qualities we could emulate, such as a viable healthcare system. Or we could create a better system on our own (not the corporate-pocket-lining crap, either). Just because we're great, doesn't mean that we couldn't be greater.
Impolite says:
"And I’m truly SURPRISED that Patrick.et now requires CIVILITY, POLITENESS and general NICENESS from those (millions?) of us who are FED-UP, FURIOUS and BOILING HOT over the way we’re being RAILROADED, RIPPED-OFF and RAPED by Goldman Sachs/WashingtonDC. It’s kinda like asking someone who’s about to be executed by firing squad to SMILE for the picture."
"As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD."
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Someone needs to refill the Prozac. If you can afford it, that is.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 17, 2:42am
The USA is a very large country. Each area has a distinctly different flavor.
Like the urban life in a city that does not sleep, but do not mind a small living quarters on a busy sreet and no parking? Try New York City.
Like to retire to an inexpensive waterfront lot and fish all day? Try ocean or lakefront living in rural Virginia.
Like a 3,000 sqft home with a 3 car garage on a 1/2 acre lot, affordable on a middle class income? Try a Texas or Carolina suburb.
Want to live where everyone has a gun, counties don't even have mandantory electrical inspections, highways have no speed limits, and very few property restrictions, try Montana.
So you see, if you are fed up with for example, with being the equivilant of a fluff girl or Gaston de Pee in a law office somewhere, you can pull up stakes and change lifestyles rather easily.
Hmmm, “dumbest thing I’ve read†sounds impolite.
Especially because you didn’t explain why you think it’s dumb.
You think corporations won’t do whatever they can to make money?
I didn't think it was necessary for competent individuals to recognize what is self evident. But it's all too easy if I must.
Corporations are bound by law to make the most money they can for their shareholders. If they started just being nice, their shareholders could sue them.
Haven't you ever heard of corporations giving to community projects or supporting (funding) philanthropical institutions? There are literally thousands of examples. Are they typically sued for these activities? I will expect that you will say that they do this for PR purposes - to maximize profits. But isn't this the same as individual action where we ultimately do everything for selfish reasons? At somepoint you have to call goodwill goodwill, even if it is self-serving at the same time. Otherwise we fall into a neverending cynicysm where all matter of kindness, politeness, is a lie.
Essentially a corporation is a collection of individuals and will act only as ethically/morally as the individuals who influence it. In other words, if a corporation does something amoral, it's because SOMEONE did something amoral. ... which brings me to the second point.
The law must be bigger than the corporations, and must stop them from making money by grinding up children to sell as dog food, for example. Corporations will scream and cry the the government is interfering in the free market, and they’d be right. A totally unregulated free market would kill us all.
Please cite where a corporation has screamed and cried how it's unfair that they haven't been allowed to grind children into dogfood and I will concede. This statement implicitly assumes that you, as a shareholder, worker, or corporate executive, along with everyone else in the corporation and all the dog-food consumers, have no problem with grinding up children for dogfood. Further, it is only the Government, source of all moral goodness, that would prevent it. That is why that statement lacks any type of intelligence, to be more POLITE.
Vicente
2009 Sep 17, 6:54am
I believe the Republican Party is teetering on the brink of fracture right now. They have failed to recognize the large population segments they have alienated & disaffected, and simply cranked up the volume from the fringes and become more shrill.
However I don't think they are the DANGER in past or present that is so often ascribed. This is precisely the nature of party politics. When any party becomes sufficiently polarized & out of touch, it finds it is losing seats in office. Which is precisely what happened lately.
No need to worry about this further.
As to those for whom Corporations are equal citizens, I ask you to compare the MORALITY & LAW standards currently imposed on Corporations versus individuals as regards bankruptcy. As individuals we are told MORALLY we must pay all our bills no matter what. As individuals post 2005 LEGALLY there avenues for bankruptcy were reduced. On the other hand when a corporation wants to declare bankruptcy to "reorganize" hey no problem here's the express lane how can we help you..... A double-standard is plainly evident and it's amazing people deny that corporations have ascended to a plane where their rights EXCEED those of citizens. It baffles me this is not under public debate. I'm baffled that corporate "personhood" fiction has morphed into a near-religion.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 17, 7:21am
On the other hand when a corporation wants to declare bankruptcy to “reorganize†hey no problem here’s the express lane how can we help you…..
That is because when a corporation goes out of business lots of people lose jobs. The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line.
For individuals, most bankruptcies (other than medical) are parachutes from an overspending lifestyle.
However, I would like to see any corporation that files for bankruptcy be required to implement serious executive pay caps. Unlikely though, since even the bailed out banks are now allowed to pay million dollar bonuses.
pkowen
2009 Sep 17, 7:25am
I believe the Republican Party is teetering on the brink of fracture right now. They have failed to recognize the large population segments they have alienated & disaffected, and simply cranked up the volume from the fringes and become more shrill.
That is a wonderful slogan, "Republicans: The party of shrill fringes."
WillyWanker
2009 Sep 17, 11:34am
What exactly does this have to do with 'Housing Crash Forum'? Would you care to explain?
The Little Guy Lobby
2009 Sep 17, 1:46pm
The fact of life is that WE-YOU-I are the ones responsible for this life we have. If you want to play the victim-blame game, go right ahead. And then, as DR. Phil would say, “How’s that working out for you-lol.
The sooner we take R E S P O N S I B I l I T Y, the sooner things will change. And yes, WE do create our own reality.
From KLNR
The Little Guy
Vicente
2009 Sep 17, 3:57pm
That is because when a corporation goes out of business lots of people lose jobs. The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line.
Everyone has a RATIONALIZATION. Please explain in supposedly egalitarian society all created equal, but now corporations outrank citizens? Makes no sense. Corporation "reorganizes" by defaulting on debts and obligations. For corporation "just business". You just characterized personal bankruptcy as OVERSPENDING= moral issue = deserve to suffer. Got news for you many bakruptcies due to MEDICAL bills.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 18, 12:50am
You just characterized personal bankruptcy as OVERSPENDING= moral issue = deserve to suffer. Got news for you many bakruptcies due to MEDICAL bills.
Read my post carefully. I specifically said:
For individuals, most bankruptcies (other than medical) are parachutes from an overspending lifestyle.
Note the "other than medical." And yes, other than medical, I would say most personal bankruptcies are parachutes from overspending.
Vicente
2009 Sep 18, 3:32am
And yes, other than medical, I would say most personal bankruptcies are parachutes from overspending.
Why do you not apply the same standard to corporations?
If they are in bankruptcy it must be because they were overspending eh?
Therefore a "means test" and asset liquidation to allow the capital to flow back into national usage instead of being tied up in a demonstrably INEFFICIENT & OVERSPENDING company would be best resolution. That's capitalism and it should be EVENLY APPLIED to corporations as to citizens.
The entire idea of corporate "personhood" was to expand their protections & rights. However with protections & rights should come the same PRICE paid by citizens. Namely you screw up badly as a person, well there are consequences. That was the entire presumption in Bankruptcy Act of 2005 revisions. Namely credit card companies were peeved people might get off the hook on debts through bankruptcy so wanted to make it harder from them to "escape". My argument is SAME standards should always be applied to both. We have built a nearly risk-free environment now for large corporations. Everything is oriented around protecting and nurturing them, and citizens are increasingly left hanging out in the wind.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 18, 4:33am
If they are in bankruptcy it must be because they were overspending eh?
Correct. That or other misguided practices, such as introducing an electric car that tops at 35mph.
Therefore a “means test†and asset liquidation to allow the capital to flow back into national usage instead of being tied up in a demonstrably INEFFICIENT & OVERSPENDING company would be best resolution. That’s capitalism and it should be EVENLY APPLIED to corporations as to citizens.
Correct again.
What makes you think I am in favor of corporations weaseling out? Notice I wrote The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line. Notice I said "politicians." If it were up to me, the company would have to restructure under the courts with no special treatment. If the corporation is too far gone for that, they close. It is the politcian that wants the special treatment, especially if it means job losses for constituents and campaign contributions from the corporation.
We have built a nearly risk-free environment now for large corporations.
Correct, except that I would say certain favored corporations. I presume you will agree that no bailouts should have been made to either bank or auto company. If those institutions were unable to survive after a restructuring, they should cease to exist.
Vicente
2009 Sep 18, 4:44am
Headset,
Actually I am in favor of some middle-ground where the courts decide the path a bankruptcy will take. I'm not that harsh about it. My argument is about uneven application of the principle currently.
I believe I misunderstood your argument and apologize for mischaracterizing.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 18, 5:56am
I believe I misunderstood your argument and apologize for mischaracterizing.
That's OK, I do not write so well.
Why worship the Democratic party?
Both parties are corrupt.
They both only nominate people who are scumbags to the positions. It is better to have the position sit empty rather have a scumbag in the seat.
So you think Anarchy is better than some corruption?
Every government has corruption in it -- you won't eliminate it. What you can do is try to be sure that what corruption you do have is naturally checked.
What a Pathetic Piss-Ant. Not Really worthy of consideration. Argues like a 19 year old college liberal.Maybe when he gets a little older or has a Muslim sword to his throat will he realize how blessed he is.
Maybe when he gets a little older or has a Muslim sword to his throat...
Scimitar - and I believe the preferred method is to start at the nape.
"How is this BETTER than Anarchy?"
Is this a joke? Do you have a clue what the term Anarchy means? Travel to Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe, or Zaire and find out for yourself. The US is the only country in the world where poor people are fat and have color tv's. Get a grip. Or at least get some perspective.
HeadSet
2009 Sep 26, 11:01am
When special interests with money are able to get the politicians to do their bidding while the politicians impose more burdens on the ordinary folks?
Why isn't anyone outraged now that the bailout banks will be allowed to hand out million dollar bonuses after all? It has become a non-issue.
Patrick
2009 Sep 26, 2:12pm
I think no one is outraged about the bailout bank bonuses because the bank topic is played down in the right-wing spin machine.
That machine exists to rile up people about things that distract them from the corporate corruption of government. So we hear about socialism, liberals, health care, and how very evil government is when it's taxing the rich.
But Fox News etc does not seem to think government is all that evil when government is handing out taxpayer money to badly-run banks. For example, if you do a search on Fox News for Goldman, you get amazing spin like this:
"Lost Goldman Sachs Bonuses Costing New York $178 Million in Lost Taxes"
Just the opposite of reality! See http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=goldman&start=10
Why worship the Democratic party?
Both parties are corrupt.
Well they are both populated with lawyers... it may be time to stop electing lawyers as Congress-men/women.
Bap33
2009 Sep 26, 3:11pm
I cant find the site (I'm tired and lazy), but there is one that shows who gives what to politico's ... who got what from "the banks" durring this last prez election? I think that would be some pretty good info to dove-tail into Patrick's point - one way or the other.
How is this BETTER than Anarchy?
Well, I don't have to worry about being murdered on the street (and there actually are streets to begin with). My life isn't a constant struggle just to stay alive. I'd count that as "better than Anarchy".
he US is the only country in the world where poor people are fat and have color tv’s.
...except for Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Norway, Denmark, Japan...
I could go on. The US is not alone in being so rich that even the "poor" are reasonably well off -- nor are we alone in having some corruption in our government.
However, the corruption that exists with the democrats and republicans doesn't hold a candle to the corruption that you'll find in third world countries, or even China and India for that matter. Some people have really, horribly skewed perspectives on how the world works.
Corruption is inherent in any system where human beings are involved. Nothing will stop that, because you can't change human nature. This is why we have laws and regulations to begin with.
Why isn’t anyone outraged now that the bailout banks will be allowed to hand out million dollar bonuses after all? It has become a non-issue.
The cynic in me says apathy, but that isn't the complete picture: there really is no mechanism in place for the public to change anything regarding the issue. Populist rage/pandering is about all the hoi polloi can hope for.
That said, I still read people on here who keep their money with BofA and Citi. Indefensible.
"I think no one is outraged about the bailout bank bonuses because the bank topic is played down in the right-wing spin machine."
Here's a remote possibility. The President is playing down the bank topic. If I were a gambling man, I might bet on this strategy: 70% of the people want health care reform. I give them health care reform, they continue to give me majorities in the House and Senate in 2010. After 2010, I can champion the reforming of Wall St. because it is another populist cause that will play well in the 2012 election where I already have the advantage of being the incumbent. If this works, the House and Senate can ride on my coat tails to maintain majorities.
"Why isn’t anyone outraged now that the bailout banks will be allowed to hand out million dollar bonuses after all? "
Maybe the funds were segregated into restricted cash accounts vs general operating cash and used to fix the defaulted loans from homeowners, which came from the depositors of the bank. And now being repaid back with interest from sales of homes the bank resold sold to the public from their inventory. While the bonus came from the general operating cash account.
I dont think congress, populated with crony lawyers, who couldn't add two numbers together have the brains to figure out how bonus programs works. Hum! did they go after the CEO bonus only or everyone else's Christmas bonus who worked at the bank ? How about the CFO bonus who didn't factor in the risks? How about the sales and marketing VP guru's who created this mess in the first place for the banks?
justme
2009 Sep 30, 11:24pm
The most effective anti-bonus program so far has been the proposal by Sheila Bair at the FDIC that all the big banks (or is it all banks?) must prepay their FDIC insurance for 2009-Q4 to 2012 at the end of 2009.
That ought to put a real crimp on all the recent and new-found bank profits, and therefore also the bonus programs, one can hope. I think Sheila Bair is being very clever -- she knows what the bankster bounus thieves are up to and at the same time has a valid need for the insurance premiums because the FIDC insurance fund is running low. For her and the American public it is a win-win situation to grab the profits while we can.
It's the ultimate clawback, so to speak.
Anyone else looking at it this way?
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Great Post by Lu Cifer, http://Lu666Cifer.blogspot.com
"Dear Republicans,
I'm sick of this bullshit.
I'm sick of the way you've corrupted the public discourse. The way you've made it acceptable to hurl any insult you like at public officials. The way you blame us for the current atmosphere of hatred by accusing us of starting it with hating Bush. Like Bush didn't come on the heels of eight years of your tireless efforts to destroy Clinton by any means necessary, like Bush didn't give us good reason to complain. A couple of posters on a website compared Bush to Hitler and you've used it as free license to compare Obama to Hitler 24/7 and I'm sick of your hypocrisy, where it's acceptable to say things about Obama that you would have had an apoplectic fit (and did) if anything remotely similar had been said about your guys. Keith Olbermann calls Cheney a fascist when he was actually using fascist tactics and you think that gives you the freedom to call Obama a fascist, socialist, Marxist constantly for no reason at all. Forget your bullshit false equivalency.
I'm sick of the way you've made the populace stupid. Around a fifth of your populace thinks the sun orbits the earth, over half think evolution never happened. Your populace actually believe the media has a liberal bias. Not because it has, you have the most conservative media in the free world, but because you've shouted it so loud and so often that you've brainwashed the public into believing it, like the battered wife who parrots her husband's insults. You've got a whole segment of the populace shouting about socialism and fascism and none of them know what the words mean. You've convinced them that fascism is a left-wing thing. You've got them so turned around that some of them actually believe global warming isn't happening.
I'm sick of the way you try to destroy the whole concept of government. You've tricked the people into believing that government can't do anything right, always being careful to exclude the army because you love your bullets and bombs but you've so destroyed the public's ability to reason that they don't even think of interstate highways, the space program, the national parks program, etc. Government is always great when it's doing what you tell it and inevitably corrupt when it isn't.
I'm sick of your rewriting of history. You've bleated so loud and long that Reagan was a great president, that the New Deal didn't work, that cutting taxes increases revenues, that you actually have the people believing this bullshit. And these are the same people who will go on to become teachers and fill their student's heads with this self-same bullshit. Reagan was a mediocre president at best who had the good fortune to be in power when the USSR collapsed under it's own weight and you bastards have turned him into the Second Coming. You've rewritten history so that everything foul and hateful and wrong can be attributed to a Democrat while everything worthwhile is a Republican's glory.
I'm sick of your dragging the center ever further to the right. How many whackjob fringe ideas have you dragged into the mainstream? The aforementioned idea that tax cuts increase revenues, the Laffer Curve, the idea that Welfare harms the poor, the idea that there's rampant fraud in Welfare, the idea that whatever is good for corporations is good for the country. And you push these ideas through your corporate media and you do it so long and loud that they become part of the accepted political landscape and because it is easier to tell a lie than to debunk one, we never get away from this rancid dreck.
I'm sick of your casual criminality. Teddy Kennedy, a man who's boots you were not worthy to lick, was just buried and all I've heard from my rightist friends for days is Chappaquiddick, Chappaquiddick, Chappaquiddick. Your golden boy raped the Constitution, mainly because he wanted to; tortured random people (and waterboarding is torture) essentially because he wanted to; spent like a drunken sailor, essentially because he wanted to; invaded a sovereign nation, essentially for the loot and destroyed people's lives, essentially for the evilulz and you bastards are obsessed with an accident a Democrat had decades ago? You don't go on about Laura Bush killing some guy decades ago.
I'm sick of you praising pure evil. You're letting Dick Cheney be the standard-bearer for Republicanism. Dick Cheney, a man so nakedly evil that even his friends call him "Darth"; a man so callous that Lex Luthor would recoil in terror; a man who probably has dismembered hitchhikers in those man-sized safes and kills plants by his mere proximity.
I'm sick of your attempts to tilt the playing field permanently in your favor. Democrats filibustered a few of Bush's most hateful judicial picks and you pricks started screaming about doing away with the filibuster but now you're in the minority, you're filibustering absolutely everything you can and whining when you don't get the chance. You ignored everything the Democrats had to say when you had power and now that you don't, you scream that everyone must be bipartisan. You don't budge an inch on anything but you insist that everyone must compromise to meet you. That's your idea of politics: Don't move an inch, force the other guy to come to the right to meet you and call the result a "compromise".
I'm sick of your corporatism. You dress it up in false populism but anyone with half a brain can see that you're the brought and paid for subsidiary of big business. You keep pushing tax cuts as the answer for absolutely everything, you keep sabotaging every attempt to control the excesses of big business. You genuinely think the world would be a better place if it was a combination of Bill Gibson's dystopian vision of a corporate dominated world and Ayn Rand's bullshit Objectivism, yet another entry in mankind's endless attempts to find a moral justification for naked greed. You've taken the clinically insane spewings of a woman literally to the right of Hitler (pardon my Godwins) and the 1984-like vision of a dystopian author and convinced yourselves that would be a good place to live. Big business is the enemy of the people, always has been. The ideal for the corporate class is to have a small pool of people rich enough to buy their crap and a much larger pool of people so poor and with so few options that they can be used and abused at the corporation's whim. A corporation's objective is not to look after you, it is to make ever-larger profits by any means necessary. You bastards want to reinstate slavery to the corporate class and you've made the public so stupid that they actually swallow the bullshit you're serving up, they actually want to enslave themselves to the corporations that abuse them at every turn. They actually care more about the corporations right to make obscene profits than they care about their child's right to live on a habitable planet. "
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