patrick.net

pkennedy says

Look at every clothing store, restaurants, car dealership, muffler shop, gas station, etc. There are probably 100-200 businesses for every one that relies on the government.

Not every business relies on subsidies, sure. However, the revenues of every business is beholden to US taxcode and US regulations--even foreign corporations. These just so happen to be enormous limitations, and often serve as barriers to entry allowing the established to entrench themselves in power and profits.

I have been a small business owner for 6 years. The largest chunk of our revenues by a factor of ten, goes to some government organization. Eliminating the employment tax alone would allow my company to have 5 times as many employees.

The government, the feel-good egaliatarianism legislation, and the command/control regulations stand squarely in the way of our economy (and in turn our working class citizens) prospering.

The super-rich and governing classes will be fine regardless.

@CBOtrader

The only real statement I take issue with is the one regarding Michelle Obama. The number of people required when any president goes anywhere is massive. It's just the way it goes. Perhaps there were more than necessary here? I'm not sure what she was doing and haven't looked this information up, but anything to help restore the name of America to the world is something good. It's a minor cost in the over all view of things and just something to nit pick about.

The difference between voters in the US and 3rd world countries is that the US population is by and large very educated and has enough of an educated base to help the uneducated. It might not seem like it when we watch jerry springer, or watch people dig themselves into debt but the average American is so far above the educational levels of 3rd world countries that it isn't funny. In those countries village elders and/or religious personal have 100% control as seen in the last Pakistan elections. The religious leaders in all those little villages and tribes pushed the current "taliban" party into power over there. It wasn't angry people in Karachi voting them in, they were voting for parties that would make their lives better, while the religous zealots pushed for what is little more than a taliban extension into power. They had no way to stop it either. This was back in 2002, while I was visiting friends I got to watch it happen first hand. That by the way is why Musraff(sp) didn't turn over power like he had promised, because the taliban WERE voted into power. He saw where that was going.

So when people think we're one step away from a 3rd world country, I ignore it. We have plenty of room to stop ourselves, and we will. It's just that the time hasn't come. We need to be pushed to the brink before we take real strong action, and that is a typical human nature found everywhere.

Bap33 says

His biggest haters dont watch the show ...

I've watched the show. I'm not a hater. I pity him because he's truly insane, imho. His arguments don't make any sense. They are worthy of the tinfoil hat crowd. The arguments go in circles and diverge on tangents that make me wonder if he has had a psychotic break recently.

The fact that there are a few thousand loyal Fox viewers who consider him to be a genius and worthy of following makes me question their sanity.

But, do I hate him? No. Pity is more the feeling that I experience whenever I've watched Beck on Fox without the lens of MSNBC commentators. It's painful watching him and I'll never understand why he is still on the air.

Oh, and we agree on Stern. I've never understood that man's appeal.

Oh and oh, we also agree on Big Bird, Mr. Rogers, and School House Rock. My favorite School House Rock was "Interplanet Janet." She's a Galaxy girl.

kentm .... I honestly don't know what point you were attempting to make. I'm sure there is one, but I couldn't find it.

Michinaga says

I’m telling you, folks, Japan for the next 20 years is just what hardworking, diligent, competent, thrifty Americans need, particularly the under-40 generation. Slightly higher unemployment (no make-work jobs for incompetents), lower real estate prices (everything becomes affordable), mild deflation (allows the young to save their money to buy that RE). This is infinitely better than the semi-hyper inflation that Bernanke and his cronies seem determined to destroy US savers with.
“Lost Icosade: USA” — bring it on!

Preach on.

Rayray is just throwing out chum here folks. There's nothing to see here. Move along...

pkennedy says

The only real statement I take issue with is the one regarding Michelle Obama. The number of people required when any president goes anywhere is massive.

Michelle Obama went to Spain with 750 people, at a cost to taxpayers of $3.5 million per day. This is exactly the type of wasteful, egotistical behavior that people of the world have learned to expect in their disgust of the US. Ask yourself this: Do you think Nelson Mandela would allow a member of the South African government, or even a leader of the UN to travel with such an entourage? I would say this is exactlt the type of waste which we should "nit pick" about. This is a $50 million microcosm of government waste.

The million dollar question: Is this a Wells or Wachovia originated mortgage?

CBOEtrader says

Michelle Obama went to Spain with 750 people, at a cost to taxpayers of $3.5 million per day

Source please ?

This is from the NY Times.

Officials said some reports of the trip had been exaggerated. Mrs. Obama is not traveling with 40 friends, one official said, but with two friends and four of their daughters, as well as a couple of aides and a couple of advance staff members. The staff is with her because she will pay a courtesy call on King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofía on the island of Majorca on Sunday before flying home to Washington.

You must be kidding CBOETrader. And it's impossible to estimate the PR value, or the value to her, given the pressures of their lives.

From what I've read, Glen Beck is a recovering alcoholic and substance abuser who suffers from Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.
Also, he has a 50/50 chance of losing his eyesight due to an inherited genetic condition. To top it off, he's a former stand up comic or possible still is. (no offense to my right ring peeps)
His audience seems to be people who are interested in purchasing gold, according to what I've seen.
He doesn't annoy me, but neither does Rosie O'Donnell.
If they want to rant, let them rant. It's cheap medicine for their conditions.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

Michelle Obama went to Spain with 750 people, at a cost to taxpayers of $3.5 million per day

Source please ?

Every source qualifies its numbers as "estimates". From what I can tell this one is coming in at the high end of the range. I will concede that point, and agree that 750 people is an exaggeration.

You know, this Wells Fargo deal is what they are doing with commercial real estate too. But Japan R Us.

Question about this: What if the lady has to sell before the house bounces back to be able to pay off the defered money? Is she a prisoner of her house? Jingle it and move on.

Nomograph says

succesful

Nomograph says

climates in then entire world

I just came up with a great idea for a business and I won't even need much in the way of start up capital. I'm offering a spell check service for Patrick.net and am hoping to sign up my first client. Care to guess who that might be? LOL

I have no source for this, but I think Michelle "Marie Antoinette" Obama might have said, at one time or another (but probably when she was on vacation in Spain) "Let them eat cake." Please don't ask for a source. At this point, it's only a rumor.

RayAmerica says

I just came up with a great idea for a business and I won’t even need much in the way of start up capital. I’m offering a spell check service for Patrick.net and am hoping to sign up my first client

Will it include grammar too? If so, here's my suggestion:

RayAmerica says

You sound prejudice,

RayAmerica says

I can tell you’ve tried to get a Guvment job and was turned down

RayAmerica says

Is that too much to aks for?

simchaland says

Rayray is just throwing out chum here folks. There’s nothing to see here. Move along…

Never had it. Never will.

RayAmerica says

“Let them eat cake.” Please don’t ask for a source. At this point, it’s only a rumor.

Either i am f*cked up, or Ray is actually becoming funny.

I must surmise that very very few people do not heart mikey. Scream it in your mind. "I heart mikey!"

thunderlips11 says

Beck is just another Dry Drunk who has lost the ability to see the Grey area in between Black and White.

Sounds right on. Amazing the following though,...right ?

Yo, Ray-Ray , I vote for this thread for being the lamest waste of bits in a long time. And that's saying a lot.

I love Glen Beck because he's like a real life version of Howard Beale.

Without people like him, they could probably only air The Daily Show twice a week.

mikey says

He doesn’t annoy me, but neither does Rosie O’Donnell.

I think this will be on a T-shirt one day

marcus says

Either i am f*cked up, or Ray is actually becoming funny.

It's a moment of clarity (on your part) but it'll pass.

lyoungblood says

Yeah I can see why the banks are doing this - they will avoid principal write-down as much as possible because of the bank failures it would cause.
I wonder how many years they can continue to keep the beach ball in the air before the entire system collapses? Or will the banks just keep the bad assets on their books for decades and we’ll see Japan all over again for the next 20 years?

Banks are in denial just like home owners and Govt. USA have fun for another 10-15 years.

I think the term "follower" is not correct for most right-wingers, such as myself. That term and philos is more of a left-winger application of life, in my experience. A right-minded person is less likely to "follow" a public talking head blindly, where as the left is full of examples of exactly that. I'm not saying there are not examples of both personality types on both sides of the isle, I'm suggesting that the majority of the follower types are of the left-minded sort. This results in the left looking like there is more unity on most issues, but the truth is there is is not really more unity, there is just less value placed on individual thought vs the group-think. Since group-think really is a type of unity, the perception is a more unified group.

On the right there is a much greater value placed on the "individual" aspect of life IMHO. The aspect could be about rights, duties, thoughts, ect. And the end result of this right-mined thought is a group that tends to gel best against a threat to the individual aspect of any matter. The right also realizes the liberties that allow the individual aspect to survive is also the birth place to most freedom damaging aspects, aspects that can only be fostered or countered by individuals at a private level. Some history items may suggest that the left wants to effect these aspects by forced behavior through threat, IE liberty removal and thought police ex: Hate Crime, Social Justice, PC, ect. It could be said that these left-minded actions and atitiudes are trying to effect the individual aspect of American life. If you feel the right wants to effect this aspect too, and not just work for it's survival, please share an example (just an example or two would be cool with me). Thanks.

I think this basically sums up my feelings...

Good riddance...

And one final send off note, I've been waiting for relevant moment to post it, but its probably not coming so here it is anyway, too good to let go...

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

I, for one, feel that it's about time that we all owned a Canadian. I'd choose Jim Carrey, because I'd sit around all day long laughing my ass off.

thunderlips11 says

Didn’t Bush spend every other week in his Texas Ranch? I believe he holds the all-time record for vacations

I don't think that any president really stops working, even Bush.

Nomograph says

Sitting around on the Internet all day complaining about welfare is a losing proposition.

Are you accusing someone of wasting their time on the interenet? Isn't that what all of us are doing here? Besides, you have posted only 10% less than Ray.

kentm says

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

This letter was fantastic!

Question for the more bible/torah inclined folks here: Is Leviticus the only place that says homosexuality is wrong in the new/old testament? I suppose there is the suspect interpretation of God smiting the Sodomites becasue of their gay sex--a very self-serving interpretation if you read the passages.

Bap33 says

I think the term “follower” is not correct for most right-wingers, such as myself. That term and philos is more of a left-winger application of life, in my experience. A right-minded person is less likely to “follow” a public talking head blindly, where as the left is full of examples of exactly that. I’m not saying there are not examples of both personality types on both sides of the isle, I’m suggesting that the majority of the follower types are of the left-minded sort. This results in the left looking like there is more unity on most issues, but the truth is there is is not really more unity, there is just less value placed on individual thought vs the group-think. Since group-think really is a type of unity, the perception is a more unified group.
On the right there is a much greater value placed on the “individual” aspect of life IMHO. The aspect could be about rights, duties, thoughts, ect. And the end result of this right-mined thought is a group that tends to gel best against a threat to the individual aspect of any matter. The right also realizes the liberties that allow the individual aspect to survive is also the birth place to most freedom damaging aspects, aspects that can only be fostered or countered by individuals at a private level. Some history items may suggest that the left wants to effect these aspects by forced behavior through threat, IE liberty removal and thought police ex: Hate Crime, Social Justice, PC, ect. It could be said that these left-minded actions and atitiudes are trying to effect the individual aspect of American life. If you feel the right wants to effect this aspect too, and not just work for it’s survival, please share an example (just an example or two would be cool with me). Thanks.

Hi Bap33, I'm Kent. I live on earth, what planet do you hail from and how long have you been traveling?

Actually please start a new thread with this note rather than tuck it away under Dr. Laura. I'm trying to parse it but have to admit I'm a bit lost and I'm curious to see where it might go if its granted the dignity of its own thread. My main interest is "is there any possibility of common ground between left and right if its viewed from this point of view", "what is left and right and do the terms actually have any relevance" and "what place do facts play in the formulation of personal philosophies"?

geeeze Kent. Just disagree bro, don't go postal. It's all good. I'm not intellectual enough to defend my personal gut feelings much more than that. Sorry for that.

Not postal, just playing around, though I guess somewhat aggressively so... because I basically I have no way to relate what you've written to what I think is the generally accepted thread of politics and history, ie reality.

So I'm serious about following your note with its own thread because I'm I'm honestly curious about these notions you've laid out - its a pretty central issue, perception, and its important to me where this comes from, what the basis of saying such things are. I could learn something.

So lets let Dr. Laura rest and if you can please break down line by line in its own thread what you wrote and give examples. But I do want to say again one of my fav quotes: "you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts"...

CBOEtrader says

Are you accusing someone of wasting their time on the interenet? Isn’t that what all of us are doing here? Besides, you have posted only 10% less than Ray.

Nomo contributes in a positive manner. He makes me laugh and has more than one message.

You lost me with the claim that all the productive Israelis have left the country for New York and London. Israel's economy is in better shape than either that of the United States or that of England. Israel is a net lender rather than a net borrower, something we would love to be. And the Israeli central bank was much less willing to prop up zombie banks during the start of the financial crisis.

As to the comparisons to Cherokees driven from their homes, I believe the point is that there was no historic Palestine until the British Mandate in the early 20th Century, which if the mandate creating Israel has no authority, that one certainly doesn't either. The area has been ruled by the Egyptians, Ottomans, Greeks, British, and many, many others. Those people lived under all these different rulers with no concerns over having a land of their own. Though there have been attempts by some historians to consider revolts against various leaders for reasons such as conscription to demonstrate some beginning of Palestinian nationalism, it certainly ebbed after those events for at least 100 years, which doesn't seem like a particularly strong push for statehood. Palestinian nationalism really began to gain strength in the early 20th Century as a response to Zionism, it certainly didn't predate Zionism. As far as I know, the Palestinians have never had self-determination or control over anything that could be called a Palestinian country. Palestinians after the creation of Israel probably had as much political power as they have ever had. Palestinians have the right to vote in elections, can sit in the Knesset, and even have a representative on the Israeli high court, and every state run company in Israel is required to have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board. Palestinians who are citizens of Israel have equal rights with all other citizens. Is everything perfect? No, but the Israelis attempt to make things as equitable for non-Jewish citizens as possible. Considering the general animosity in the region, Israel as a country does an impressive job of combating institutional racism, and a study by the University of Maryland demonstrated that Arab citizens of Israel have higher quality of life than Arabs in surrounding countries.

"Please explain why. - Thunderlips11"

I already have. Just because you don't like the answers and what they mean doesn't mean that I haven't answered the question.

"Except they only owned 7% of the tiny pre-Independence Israel’s land and were only 11% of the population. Even in the early 40s they barely touched 15% of the population after a great deal of illegal immigration. - Thunderlips11"

And the point of this argument is? You still don't understand that the real problem is with foreign powers dividing the land as they saw fit. Blame the UN and the British. That's where the blame lies.

""During the Crusades local Jews fought with local Arabs against the Crusaders. They weren’t immigrants. That is a fact." - Simcha
"Again, nobody is denying they was an ultrareligous minority, and almost all of them lived inside Jerusalem, and there was probably always a tiny minority of Jews, but vastly outnumbered by Arabs. - Thunderlips11""

Maybe they were an ultrareligious minority. I don't know how religious these Jews who were already residing in their own homeland for millenia were. The fact remains that there have been Jews in that area for millenia. And yes, so what if they were vastly outnumbered? They were originally beaten into submission and most fled in ancient times. Some hardy souls remained even through the persecutions.

"A few ten thousand that were always there yes, a tiny minority. Millions? That is the result of immigration. - Thunderlips11"

I wasn't ever arguing this point. And immigration has always been part of the human experience. What's your point?

"And I’m sure you know enough of the History of Israel to know about the Exodus and the huge numbers of immigrants that poured in since Hertzl and really after WW2. I think you’re deliberately misleading people by overstating the pre 1900 population of Israel to make it sound like a national liberation... - Thunderlips11"

1. I'm not going to argue about any other ethnic group and their struggles. I'm going to stick to this topic in this thread.

2. I was the one who brought in the number of 1000 Jewish families in Israel being all there were before immigration from Europe. So I don't know where you get this impression.

"So if an ethnic group has a long written and oral tradition about returning to another land, we have to carve out a territory for them there, no matter how many millenium have passed? - Thunderlips11"

Why not? Many nations have been created in the world with less justification than that.

"Born Jewish. Bar-Mitzvahed on Massadah. I sang a part of the Torah, for a year a nice Conservative Jew from Brooklyn would drive out to Long Island where I grew up and help me learn it. In his beat up 1970s era Oldsmobile, right out of the stereotype book...

You do not have to be a Zionist to be a Jew. You’d be surprised at how many hundreds of thousands of Jews - not just secular Jews like me but even Hasidic Jews - are anti-Zionist. - Thunderlips11"

1. Just because you're a Jew doesn't mean that you aren't anti-semitic. My Great Uncle was 100% Jewish and hated Jews, blacks, Mexicans, etc.

2. No you don't have to be a Zionist to be a Jew. And anti-Zionists don't get to redefine Zionism.

3. Hassidic Jews are anti-Zionist because they believe that Jews shouldn't return to Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach comes. And most Orthodox Jews believe that no Jew should go to the Temple Mount because if you aren't a Kohen or Levi you could be walking into the Holy of Holies and be swallowed up by the Earth. They are anti-Zionist for purely religious reasons, not for moral reasons, and they certainly don't hate Zionists.

"What’s funny about living in America, is that one can read points like mine in Haaretz everyday, one of the biggest Israeli daily newspapers. Here it is considered heresy and evil. - Thunderlips11"

No, I don't consider it heresy or evil. That's one of the wonderful things about Israel, freedom of expression and freedom of the press. Too bad the Arabs don't have that freedom in any country. You'll never see anything negative being written in newspapers in Arab countries about Hamas or Hezbollah. That doesn't mean that they haven't committed atrocities and that they don't hold their own people hostage. And it doesn't mean that there aren't any Arabs who are angry at both Hamas and Hezbollah. It just means that their voices can't be heard.

"Israel doesn’t have long to last. - Thunderlips11"

That's an opinion. It's fine to have. Israel has always lived on the brink of destruction since its very inception.

"The productive Israelis leave the county for New York and London, leaving only the rabid Likudites to keep upping the ante. - Thunderlips11"

I'm not sure that this is universally true. I do know that there is a large exodus of talented young people who are leaving. There are also new immigrants who have talent who come to Israel and stay. And these newer immigrants aren't necessarily Likudites.

"It’s too bad Israelis can’t reach out and establish a real democracy by inviting all the Arabs into Palestine, instead of keeping them in Ghettos. - Thunderlips11"

1. I agree that Israel would be best served by reaching out to Arabs.

2. It's too bad the Palestinian Arabs can't reach out to the Israelis and establish a real democracy by inviting all Israeli Jews to live along side of them in peace in a unified country.

3. It isn't the Israelis who keep the Palestinian Arabs in Ghettos. I went to Jordan and Egypt this year and I saw first hand a refugee camp in Jordan north of Amman where Palestinian Arabs are forced to live by the Jordanians. This situation is still going on in Lebanon too. The Palestinan Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank who live in refugee camps are forced to live there by their fellow Palestinian Arabs for the same reason that the Jordanians and Lebanese force Palestinian Arabs to live in refugee camps, to make a political point. Palestinian Arab refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt are denied citizenship and forced to live separately to make a political point. There are no refugee camps in Israel proper. You can try to argue that Gaza and the West Bank are ghettos, but that's a very simplistic point of view that isn't based on facts.

Zionism does not equal Judaism. So your title is not very intelligent. It shows a political point of view that is anti-Zionist without understanding what Zionism is. Zionism isn't racist as many on the left claim. It's not about hate at all. It's about an idea that Israel is still our home and that we should be able to live there in peace physically. Zionism isn't anti-Arab or anti-anyone. The radical nationalists are one thing. Zionism is another.

It's also not just some romantic or nationalistic idea. It comes out of our spiritual tradition too. There is a belief that all Jews will be gathered to Jerusalem (the physical Jerusalem) when the Messiah comes. I'm sure you know that. Not all Jews believe it. However, the belief exists.

By the way, I don't consider myself a Zionist because I've never even been to Israel. The closest I've been is Jordan and Egypt. And I'm not willing to make Aliyah because I'm an American Jew and enjoy being an American. The USA is my physical home, not Israel. The concept of Israel is my spiritual home. I don't believe that Israel is a saintly country that does no wrong as many on the right seem to think.

I'm a realist. I see that both sides have blood on their hands. Both peoples have a right to be there. There are millions of Israeli Jews who were born and raised in Israel. It's too late to try to deport them. Where would they go? Their home is Israel simply because they were born there. Just like my home is the USA, because I was born here. As far as I'm concerned Palestinian Arabs should have the right to live where ever they want in peace just as Israeli Jews have the same right.

I don't forget that the Palestinian Arabs committed and continue to commit horrible atrocities against Israeli Jews. I don't forget that Israeli Jews committed and continue to commit horrible atrocities against Palestinian Arabs. Therefore, as a realist, I don't see both peoples embracing a "one state solution" any time soon. They're too bitter and angry at one another for good reasons. In my opinion the more realistic solution for now is to have a "two state solution." Maybe down the road both states may finally realize that they need each other. Right now, they just can't see past their mistrust, anger, and hate of one another.

And as far as "What is a Jew?" goes, you have illustrated my point beautifully. We Jews can't even agree on what a Jew is and who is a Jew. It's encoded in our DNA. "Two Jews, three opinions." ;)

thunderlips11 says

I believe he holds the all-time record for vacations

It's not a vacation if you take the work with you. Here's Bush reviewing the daily briefing memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US".

bad luck with that one. Then again, maybe not. Not stopping the attacks let him run a trillion-dollar (!) unnecessary war past/through Congress.

"I think the term “follower” is not correct for most right-wingers, such as myself. That term and philos is more of a left-winger application of life, in my experience."

my best guess is you mean this part (?)

Maybe the words in the memo had too many syllables.