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Are we becoming a police state?


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2015 Apr 24, 5:46pm   43,339 views  131 comments

by indigenous   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

Battlefield America: The War on the American People
By John W. Whitehead
April 22, 2015
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“A government which will turn its tanks upon its people, for any reason, is a government with a taste of blood and a thirst for power and must either be smartly rebuked, or blindly obeyed in deadly fear.”—John Salter

We have entered into a particularly dismal chapter in the American narrative, one that shifts us from a swashbuckling tale of adventure into a bone-chilling horror story.

As I document in my new book Battlefield America: The War on the American People, “we the people” have now come full circle, from being held captive by the British police state to being held captive by the American police state. In between, we have charted a course from revolutionaries fighting for our independence and a free people establishing a new nation to pioneers and explorers, braving the wilderness and expanding into new territories.
Where we went wrong, however, was in allowing ourselves to become enthralled with and then held hostage by a military empire in bondage to a corporate state (the very definition of fascism). No longer would America hold the moral high ground as a champion of freedom and human rights. Instead, in the pursuit of profit, our overlords succumbed to greed, took pleasure in inflicting pain, exported torture, and imported the machinery of war, transforming the American landscape into a battlefield, complete with military personnel, tactics and weaponry.

To our dismay, we now find ourselves scrambling for a foothold as our once rock-solid constitutional foundation crumbles beneath us. And no longer can we rely on the president, Congress, the courts, or the police to protect us from wrongdoing.

Indeed, they have come to embody all that is wrong with America.

For instance, how does a man who is relatively healthy when taken into custody by police lapse into a coma and die while under their supervision? What kind of twisted logic allows a police officer to use a police car to run down an American citizen and justifies it in the name of permissible deadly force? And what country are we living in where the police can beat, shoot, choke, taser and tackle American citizens, all with the protection of the courts?

Certainly, the Constitution’s safeguards against police abuse means nothing when government agents can crash through your door, terrorize your children, shoot your dogs, and jail you on any number of trumped of charges, and you have little say in the matter. For instance, San Diego police, responding to a domestic disturbance call on a Sunday morning, showed up at the wrong address, only to shoot the homeowner’s 6-year-old service dog in the head.

Rubbing salt in the wound, it’s often the unlucky victim of excessive police force who ends up being charged with wrongdoing. Although 16-year-old Thai Gurule was charged with resisting arrest and strangling and assaulting police officers, a circuit judge found that it was actually the three officers who unlawfully stopped, tackled, punched, kneed, tasered and yanked his hair who were at fault. Thankfully, bystander cell phone videos undermined police accounts, which were described as “works of fiction.”
Not even our children are being spared the blowback from a growing police presence. As one juvenile court judge noted in testimony to Congress, although having police on public school campuses did not make the schools any safer, it did result in large numbers of students being arrested for misdemeanors such as school fights and disorderly conduct. One 11-year-old autistic Virginia student was charged with disorderly conduct and felony assault after kicking a trashcan and resisting a police officer’s attempt to handcuff him. A 14-year-old student was tasered by police, suspended and charged with disorderly conduct, resisting arrest and trespassing after he failed to obey a teacher’s order to be the last student to exit the classroom.

There is no end to the government’s unmitigated gall in riding roughshod over the rights of the citizenry, whether in matters of excessive police powers, militarized police, domestic training drills, SWAT team raids, surveillance, property rights, overcriminalization, roadside strip searches, profit-driven fines and prison sentences, etc.

The president can now direct the military to detain, arrest and secretly execute American citizens. These are the powers of an imperial dictator, not an elected official bound by the rule of law. For the time being, Barack Obama wears the executioner’s robe, but you can rest assured that this mantle will be worn by whomever occupies the Oval Office in the future.

A representative government means nothing when the average citizen has little to no access to their elected officials, while corporate lobbyists enjoy a revolving door relationship with everyone from the President on down. Indeed, while members of Congress hardly work for the taxpayer, they work hard at being wooed by corporations, which spend more to lobby our elected representatives than we spend on their collective salaries. For that matter, getting elected is no longer the high point it used to be. As one congressman noted, for many elected officials, “Congress is no longer a destination but a journey… [to a] more lucrative job as a K Street lobbyist… It’s become routine to see members of Congress drop their seat in Congress like a hot rock when a particularly lush vacancy opens up.”

As for the courts, they have long since ceased being courts of justice. Instead, they have become courts of order, largely marching in lockstep with the government’s dictates, all the while helping to increase the largesse of government coffers. It’s called for-profit justice, and it runs the gamut of all manner of financial incentives in which the courts become cash cows for communities looking to make an extra buck. As journalist Chris Albin-Lackey details, “They deploy a crushing array of fines, court costs, and other fees to harvest revenues from minor offenders that these communities cannot or do not want to raise through taxation.” In this way, says Albin-Lackey, “A resident of Montgomery, Alabama who commits a simple noise violation faces only a $20 fine—but also a whopping $257 in court costs and user fees should they seek to have their day in court.”

As for the rest—the schools, the churches, private businesses, service providers, nonprofits and your fellow citizens—many are also marching in lockstep with the police state. This is what is commonly referred to as community policing. After all, the police can’t be everywhere. So how do you police a nation when your population outnumbers your army of soldiers? How do you carry out surveillance on a nation when there aren’t enough cameras, let alone viewers, to monitor every square inch of the country 24/7? How do you not only track but analyze the transactions, interactions and movements of every person within the United States? The answer is simpler than it seems: You persuade the citizenry to be your eyes and ears.

It’s a brilliant ploy, with the added bonus that while the citizenry remains focused on and distrustful of each other, they’re incapable of focusing on more definable threats that fall closer to home—namely, the government and its militarized police. In this way, we’re seeing a rise in the incidence of Americans being reported for growing vegetables in their front yard, keeping chickens in their back yard, letting their kids walk to the playground alone, and voicing anti-government sentiments. For example, after Shona Banda’s son defended the use of medical marijuana during a presentation at school, school officials alerted the police and social services, and the 11-year-old was interrogated, taken into custody by social workers, had his home raided by police and his mother arrested.

Now it may be that we have nothing to worry about. Perhaps the government really does have our best interests at heart. Perhaps covert domestic military training drills such as Jade Helm really are just benign exercises to make sure our military is prepared for any contingency. As the Washington Post describes the operation:

The mission is vast both geographically and strategically: Elite service members from all four branches of the U.S. military will launch an operation this summer in which they will operate covertly among the U.S. public and travel from state to state in military aircraft. Texas, Utah and a section of southern California are labeled as hostile territory, and New Mexico isn’t much friendlier.

Now I don’t believe in worrying over nothing, but it’s safe to say that the government has not exactly shown itself to be friendly in recent years, nor have its agents shown themselves to be cognizant of the fact that they are civilians who answer to the citizenry, rather than the other way around.

Whether or not the government plans to impose some form of martial law in the future remains to be seen, but there can be no denying that we’re being accustomed to life in a military state. The malls may be open for business, the baseball stadiums may be packed, and the news anchors may be twittering nonsense about the latest celebrity foofa, but those are just distractions from what is really taking place: the transformation of America into a war zone.

Trust me, if it looks like a battlefield (armored tanks on the streets, militarized police in metro stations, surveillance cameras everywhere), sounds like a battlefield (SWAT team raids nightly, sound cannons to break up large assemblies of citizens), and acts like a battlefield (police shooting first and asking questions later, intimidation tactics, and involuntary detentions), it’s a battlefield.

Indeed, what happened in Ocala, Florida, is a good metaphor for what’s happening across the country: Sheriff’s deputies, dressed in special ops uniforms and riding in an armored tank on a public road, pulled a 23-year-old man over and issued a warning violation to him after he gave them the finger. The man, Lucas Jewell, defended his actions as a free speech expression of his distaste for militarized police.

Translation: “We the people” are being hijacked on the highway by government agents with little knowledge of or regard for the Constitution, who are hyped up on the power of their badge, outfitted for war, eager for combat, and taking a joy ride—on taxpayer time and money—in a military tank that has no business being on American soil.

Rest assured, unless we slam on the brakes, this runaway tank will soon be charting a new course through terrain that bears no resemblance to land of our forefathers, where freedom meant more than just the freedom to exist and consume what the corporate powers dish out.

Rod Serling, one of my longtime heroes and the creator of The Twilight Zone, understood all too well the danger of turning a blind eye to evil in our midst, the “things that scream for a response.” As Serling warned, “if we don’t listen to that scream – and if we don’t respond to it – we may well wind up sitting amidst our own rubble, looking for the truck that hit us – or the bomb that pulverized us. Get the license number of whatever it was that destroyed the dream. And I think we will find that the vehicle was registered in our own name.”

If you haven’t managed to read the writing on the wall yet, the war has begun.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/john-w-whitehead/battlefield-america-2/

#politics

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92   elliemae   2015 Apr 26, 10:57am  

A friend of mine who is married to a cop said that the difference between how she looks at people and he looks at people is this: She starts them at a "10" and they have to earn her distrust. He starts them at a "1" and they have to earn his trust.

Cameras are wonderful things, but many officers don't like them....
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/22/us/california-marshal-smashed-phone/index.html

93   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 10:59am  

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

Oh, CiC, you're so funny.

It wasn't a joke....

Duh, you don't say, though you calling someone else a troll is so laughably hypocritical it is actually funny.

94   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 11:05am  

elliemae says

He starts them at a "1" and they have to earn his trust.

Police work attracts this element of society. Once someone was telling me that they got into police work in order to help people but quickly realized that cops are assholes and got out of it. Not to say all of them are but certainly a higher percentage. This characteristic gets further imprinted on them after years of dealing with bullshit.

95   HydroCabron   2015 Apr 26, 11:49am  

Call it Crazy says

Plus, you've started all of 2 threads for discussion in 3-1/2 years...

Since you've started the same 2 threads 800 times each in that same period, I'm gonna say Bigsby is a better contributor.

Being declared the dumbest member of this forum - as opposed to your previous position as the 2nd-dumbest fucktard - must have left a mark on what's left of your ego. You are noticeably crankier than before.

96   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 11:54am  

HydroCabron says

Being declared the dumbest member of this forum - as opposed to your previous position as the 2nd-dumbest fucktard - must have left a mark on what's left of your ego. You are noticeably crankier than before.

Said the mutt, pinche cabron

97   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 5:01pm  

indigenous says

Which has nothing to do with government.

Everything to do with Government. UK for 300 years prior to the 19th Century carried out a policy of destroying wool and linen manufacturing on the continent, paying Burgundian Burghers to move to England, refusing to export Fuller's Earth and Wool, including raw wool as reparations in peace treaties, and buying up surplus wool from around Europe.

The US had high tariffs on manufacturing, otherwise, we'd be like Mexico, that did not.

98   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 5:03pm  

indigenous says

And would have been higher if not for the public indoctrination system. Not to mention Calif for instance has the some of the highest paid teachers in the country with almost the worst test scores in the country.

There is so much "duh" here I can't even be arsed. The illiteracy rate in late 19th Century Britain before Government Schooling was about 30%. It was over 80% in Scotland, where schools were supported by law. It's also how the Scots came to dominate British Intellectual, Business, and Literary Life.

99   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 5:07pm  

thunderlips11 says

The US had high tariffs on manufacturing, otherwise, we'd be like Mexico, that did not.

And you would say this was the main reason for the industrial revolution???

100   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 5:09pm  

thunderlips11 says

The illiteracy rate in late 19th Century Britain before Government Schooling was about 30%. It was over 80% in Scotland, where schools were supported by law. It's also how the Scots came to dominate British Intellectual, Business, and Literary Life.

My understanding is that the literacy rate in the US in the late 19th century was very high, maybe even higher than todays standards, which is a very low bar.

101   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 5:10pm  

indigenous says

My understanding is that the literacy rate in the US in the late 19th century was very high, maybe even higher than todays standards, which is a very low bar.

Many states had public education.

102   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 5:21pm  

thunderlips11 says

Many states had public education.

They have that now, would you say the literacy rate is better now?

103   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 5:28pm  

indigenous says

They have that now, would you say the literacy rate is better now?

Yeah, it's well-nigh 100%. And consider that 2/3 of the public has college or some college education to boot, pretty damned impressive.

What percentage of the population went to college in 1880, Laissez-Faire golden years?

Here's a picture of Glorious Laissez-Faire America for you.

One boy is "James Leonard", the other is "Stanley Rasmus". Taken outside Pittsburg, PA circa 1908-1912

10 hour days.

Hiram Polk, age 9, working at a cannery:

"I ain't very fast only about 5 boxes a day. They pay about 5 cents a box," he said. Eastport, Maine.

Taken from:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor

104   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 6:06pm  

thunderlips11 says

And consider that 2/3 of the public has college or some college education to boot, pretty damned impressive.

I still question how literate they are now. Seriously look at the denizens of Pat.net, what percentage would you say are literate? This means understand what they read. E.G. understand what the word Fascism means, I asked you and Bigsby over and over yet you would not answer.

Look at this example from 1907

https://books.google.com/books?id=2DMAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA914&lpg=PA914&dq=machinists+diary&source=bl&ots=PSLwKNavkc&sig=2E4r8e-wi_wGeU3jBu3GjMNiNOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eok9VeK2HJe5ogT0hoDoBA&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=machinists%20diary&f=false

or the fact that Thomas Paine sold 500,000 copies of Common Sense in 1776

or the fact that Dickens was a rock star during those times.

All of this requires a literate audience.

This from this:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/12/16/literacy

Not only does it find that the average literacy of college educated Americans declined significantly from 1992 to 2003, but it also reveals that just 25 percent of college graduates -- and only 31 percent of those with at least some graduate studies -- scored high enough on the tests to be deemed "proficient" from a literacy standpoint, which the government defines as "using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

105   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 6:49pm  

indigenous says

Not only does it find that the average literacy of college educated Americans declined significantly from 1992 to 2003, but it also reveals that just 25 percent of college graduates -- and only 31 percent of those with at least some graduate studies -- scored high enough on the tests to be deemed "proficient" from a literacy standpoint, which the government defines as "using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

I want to see evidence that due to Public Schooling, Literacy declined.

indigenous says

or the fact that Thomas Paine sold 500,000 copies of Common Sense in 1776

* US Presses couldn't print in such quantities
* 500,000 was the total number of all households in North America, including Canada
* Population largely rural and far from printing press
* Many households were illiterate.
* At least 1/3rd of British North America was Loyalist.
* Paine himself had no idea as he got no royalties for Common Sense, he guessed 120k and then 150k years later - of course, he was also a printer himself and a bit of book hustler himself.
http://allthingsliberty.com/2013/03/thomas-paines-inflated-numbers/

106   CL   2015 Apr 26, 6:53pm  

indigenous says

Splain me

Henry Luce, Clair Boothe Luce were Republicans. Time Magazine is not considered liberal by normal people.

107   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 6:58pm  

Call it Crazy says

Looks like there are at least 13 others that agree with me..

Call it Crazy says

Plus, you've started all of 2 threads for discussion in 3-1/2 years... With you, it's ALL about useless comments in other people's threads...

Seems like you've earned those troll bucks!!

Damn, do you ever come up with anything novel? How many times have you repeated this exact same thing? It's even the same screen shot you used before. Try and think of something new to say. Try and then fail to do so.

108   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 6:58pm  

thunderlips11 says

I want to see evidence that due to Public Schooling, Literacy declined.

What you talking about Willis?

thunderlips11 says

500,000 was the total number of all households in North America, including Canada

Fair enough but the point is still that a large percentage of the citizens did read it such that from your article:

"Common Sense did enjoy remarkable popularity and it likely had a significant impact, loosening the tone and the terms of the grand debate over independence."

IOW there was considerable literacy back then.

109   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 7:08pm  

From you article, the definition of "Proficient"


It assesses three types of literacy: "prose literacy," which is the ability to comprehend continuous texts, like newspaper articles and the brochure that comes with a new microwave; "document literacy," the ability to understand and use documents to perform tasks, like reading a map or prescription labels; and "quantitative literacy," which are the skills needed to do things like balancing a checkbook or calculating the interest on a loan from an advertisement.

Based on their scores, participants in the survey were deemed to have "basic," "intermediate" or "proficient" literacy (Whitehurst noted that a National Research Council committee that recommended the literacy levels initially called the highest level "advanced," but that department officials ultimately concluded that the skills required for that category -- comparing viewpoints in two editorials, for instance, or calculating the cost per ounce of different grocery items -- weren't really all that advanced.)


First paragraph, is that Numerative ability is being calculated along with "prose" literacy, which isn't the dictionary definition of Literacy, but is their own concoction.

I also don't see how calculating the cost per ounce of different grocery items is a measure of "Literacy" in the first place:

To make it even funnier, the schmucks who did this study made up "Quantitative Literacy" instead of using "Numeracy", showing they "ain't all that literate" themselves by not using a long standing, and not terribly obscure, English word to describe command of mathematics.

But be that as it may, their "Proficient" was originally named "Advanced", the highest level of 3 their "Literacy"(-Numeracy) rankings. So, surprise, that 25% of college students were advanced and 31% of grad students also.

110   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 26, 7:11pm  

indigenous says

Fair enough but the point is still that a large percentage of the citizens did read it such that from your article:

Read it or have it read to them by a literate person. No disagreement there.

111   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 7:30pm  

Call it Crazy says

Nope, new screen shot, nothing changed (except troll comments)...

Strange that I don't have anyone on ignore...

Call it Crazy says

Try to start a new discussion instead of the same trolling you do day in, day out...

What exactly do you do every day except post repetitively trollish comments and press the dislike button on every post I make? Oh, I forgot, you also go around pressing the like button on your own posts.

112   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 7:58pm  

thunderlips11 says

But be that as it may, their "Proficient" was originally named "Advanced", the highest level of 3 their "Literacy"(-Numeracy) rankings. So, surprise, that 25% of college students were advanced and 31% of grad students also.

That was the first thing I grabbed off of Google. The point is still the same and you have not countered it to any degree. The literacy rate today might be lower than the late 1880s? Not saying it is but might be.

113   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 7:59pm  

Call it Crazy says

http://patrick.net/about.php?user_ID=22641

You really are as screwed up in the head as Gary...

My mistake. I didn't think I had anyone on ignore. It is, however, still something you've posted multiple times before. And it is also utterly irrelevant to me saying that you are a hypocrite accusing someone else of being a troll. Again what exactly do you do day after day on here?

114   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 8:03pm  

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

press the dislike button on every post I make? Oh, I forgot, you also go around pressing the like button on your own posts.

Wrong and wrong... But I can Start disliking your posts if that will make you happy!!

Sure, sure. That must explain all those posts you have with 6 or so dislikes and one like. And it's interesting how you are always around when I get a single dislike on a post that is totally innocuous...

Call it Crazy says

Go to this link:

http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=22641

And tell us what you actually posted in ANY of those comments that ADDED helpful information to that thread, that wasn't just your every day keyboard diarrhea..

Should we play the same game with your posts? I don't have the kind of inordinate amount of free time that some on here seem to have. I make quick and pithy remarks to things that I can see are blatantly incorrect. Read that UN report on murder rates by any chance?

115   Bigsby   2015 Apr 26, 8:14pm  

Call it Crazy says

You seem to have the time the last few days. What happened, did they up your troll post quota for each day? You've worked hard today and earned this:

A handful of short posts over the weekend. Wow. What is your excuse? A retired imbecile with nothing better to do? Still think the US would be fourth bottom in murder rates if you removed those four cities, or were you (of course) just trolling as usual?

116   bob2356   2015 Apr 26, 8:17pm  

indigenous says

bob2356 says

You forgot meme and mutts as part of your standard answer when you have no rational quantifiable evidence. So document where dividends were controlled on corporations under the nazi's. I'll be waiting, but the sun will probably go supernova first.

Are you implying that corporations in key industries were not nationalized by Hitler?

Well you have been free all along to name them. You are still free to name them.

The nazi's dumped most of the state owned corporations. Let's see what the nazi's actually did:
Largest steel companies
United Steel 2nd largest corporation in Germany - privatized
Vereinigte Oberschlesische Hüttenwerke AG controled of all metal production in the Upper Silesian coal and steel industry - privatized
Largest banks
Commerz-Bank - privatized
Deutsche Bank - privatized
Dresdner Bank - privatized
Ship building
Deutsche Schiff-und Machinenbau AG Bremen “Deschimag” (German Shipbuilding and Engineering Co.) - privatized
Shipping lines
Hamburg-SüdAmerika - privatized
Norddeutscher Lloyd (North German Lloyd) - privatized
Deutsche Bank & Berliner Handels-Gesellschaft - privatized
Public utilities - all privatized
Public services
Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront - privatized
Nationalsozialistiche Volkswohlfahrt (National Socialist People’s WelfareOrganization–NSV) - privatized.

Large Private corporations
I.G. Farben the largest corporation in germany - remained private they made lots of Zyklon-B gas
Volkswagan remained private
Hugo Boss remained private all those uniforms they made looked very butch.
Seimans remained private being clever businessmen they built lots of factories in places like Auschwitz and Buchenwald. slave labor was great for the bottom line.
IBM of germany remained private supplied all the punch cards and machines to keep track of (among many other things) people by religion and location.
Standard oil of germany - remained private shipped oil through switzerland.
Chase bank of germany - remained private did extensive business with the nazi's through the paris branch
Ford of germany - remained private built trucks for germany in france.
ITT germany - remained private Sosthenes Behn, the head of ITT flew to germany to improve communications systems and robot bombs used on london.
ITT germany - built Focke-Wulf planes
General Motors of germany - remained private full-scale production of trucks, armored cars, and tanks The legendary Bunkie Knudsen himself flew over to do the deal.

That's off the top of my head (ok I cheated I looked up the german names in "Trading With the Enemy: An Exposé of The Nazi-American Money-Plot 1933-1949" by Charles Higham). I could google more if you want.

I'll be patiently waiting for your list. Probably until the end of time. You could throw in an explanation of the dividend thing while you aren't answering the question.

indigenous says

And yup I am one of those "special people" who prefer insight to regurgitating history without conceptional understanding.

Perhaps you should try knowing history before you try to do insight. The only insight you have is regurgitating commentary from misis.org.

117   indigenous   2015 Apr 26, 8:49pm  

Fair enough I can't find where they nationalized any companies. Rather they controlled prices and the labor.

Albeit the cronyism that must have existed would be tantamount to nationalizing the companies.

However I cannot dismiss Mises' ideas on this, especially since he fled Europe because of the Nazis. You on the other hand are wrong as often as you are right.

118   bob2356   2015 Apr 26, 10:21pm  

Aha, now we have tantamount. So cronyism is tantamount to socialism even with private companies making huge profits. Well you just made the US the most socialist country in the world. Congrats. Maybe it would have been easier to say the nazi's weren't socialists.

At least I'm right sometimes. Mises is wrong plenty also despite your unfailing idolatry. The Economist said of von Mises: "Professor von Mises has a splendid analytical mind and an admirable passion for liberty; but as a student of human nature he is worse than null" which about sums it up. Great ideas that are totally impractical in the real world with real people.

Of course he fled the nazi's. He was jewish and well off not stupid. He would have been a name on hollerith card (gladly supplied by IBM) and a very minor footnote in swiss and/or austrian history if the nazi's had taken switzerland.

119   bob2356   2015 Apr 26, 11:57pm  

Bigsby says

You don't have a police state. You just have a very heavy-handed police force that's been given too much ex-military equipment.

In America even as a citizen,
You can be stopped at any time and asked for your papers without any wrongdoing
Your possesions and cash can be confiscated at any time without ever being accused or charged with anything. You must prove you didn't commit a crime.
Your passport can be seized at any time, especially by the IRS. You have to prove you did nothing wrong.
You may be detained forever without being charged or given legal council by the magic of the word terrorism. No proof needed.
Everything you do that involves electronic transmission is being recorded.
Militarized police forces
80,000 swat raids per year up from 3000 20 years ago
Any anonymous child abuse tip (identity protected, great way to get back at the boss) brings in a swat team breaking down your door, killing your dog, and seizing your children.
Police, prosecuters, and expert witnesses regularly lie with impunity.
A squad of 14 armed police stormed barber shops and arrested people for "barbering without a license". In orange county no less. They did have razors after all.
Federal agencies are exempt from obtaining warrants.
The military is training to prepare for a “violent, strategic dislocation inside the United States,”
The government has acquired billions of rounds of ammunition for agencies including agriculture, commerce, and noaa. yes, noaa has armed agents.
Your laptop can be seized and illegally searched at customs without a warrant or even accusation.
The highest incarceration rate in the world.
DNA is taken from arrestees without a conviction or even a charge.
Public protest is criminalized. Police set up large "security areas" and arrest anyone inside for trespassing.

Curiosity overwhelms me. What would you like to see added to this at best partial list to make it an actual police state?

120   Bigsby   2015 Apr 27, 1:01am  

That still doesn't make it a police state. Phrases like that are thrown around too easily. Most of what you mention is heavy handed policing, dubious methods of fund raising, or over encroachment under the guise of protecting the populace from terrorism. Those issues could be addressed if the politicians people elected had any interests beyond getting their mugs on tv or bowing and scraping to those who fund their elections.
As for the numbers in prison, they're shocking, but presumably the incarceration rates will drop as your drug policies become more enlightened.

121   bob2356   2015 Apr 27, 6:46am  

Bigsby says

That still doesn't make it a police state.

My question was what would have to be added to the list to make it a police state. I don't see where there is any actual checks on police powers these days. That doesn't mean just the police, the entire federal government has police powers they use every day. The federal government has even less restrictions on it's policing than the almost nill restrictions the local police have.

The local police can and do seize people property and money every day without even having to file charges. The federal agencies are completely exempt from the bill of rights. People are encouraged to spy on each other and report it. What would make it an official police state?

Been keeping up with fincen lately? Are you aware that every bank has a quota of suspicious activity reports to file with fincen, even if they don't see any suspicious activity? That there is no real definition of suspicious activity other than activity out of the normal over 5k. Selling a car, inheritance, whatever will get you in the fincen system. Even better now there are new guidelines from fincen. Banks are supposed to contact an investigative agency as well as file reports. Want to bet the police empty your bank account first, then ask you questions? Then you have to go to court with a lawyer to get it back. Not a police state?

I actually had friends in europe last year joke to me that america is now the worlds largest low security prison. That's not a good image.

122   Bigsby   2015 Apr 27, 7:11am  

Are those examples of the government arbitrarily exercising power over the populace through the police or the police taking advantage of a poorly defined framework in order to raise extra funds for themselves in limited circumstances? It sounds like the latter to me.
Having a reporting quota isn't a police state. It's pointless and bureaucratic over-reach. Checking for suspicious banking activity is a reasonable thing to be doing. It's an issue of extent surely.
And under what circumstances have police emptied bank accounts? I'd be interested to hear when/why/how that has been allowed. I presume there are guidelines; if not, then why don't you do something about it (I'm not a US citizen)?

Yes, people that I know in Europe comment about the numbers in your prison system, but in general though, those people still think there is greater freedom in the US.

123   bob2356   2015 Apr 27, 8:01am  

Bigsby says

Are those examples of the government arbitrarily exercising power over the populace through the police or the police taking advantage of a poorly defined framework in order to raise extra funds for themselves in limited circumstances? It sounds like the latter to me.

Read up on civil forfeitures. The abuses are so widespread and egregious that it's pointless to even try to describe them. The circumstances aren't limited at all.

Bigsby says

under what circumstances have police emptied bank accounts? I'd be interested to hear when/why/how that has been allowed. I presume there are guidelines; if not, then why don't you do something about it (I'm not a US citizen)?

There are no guidelines at the federal level, especially the IRS http://rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/ at the local level police need to get a warrent from the court.

I did do something, I got other passports.

The question still stands, what would make it a police state? There really are very few civil rights left to give up.

Bigsby says

Yes, people that I know in Europe comment about the numbers in your prison system, but in general though, those people still think there is greater freedom in the US

They weren't talking about the prison population, they were talking about the entire population. That was the joke. I've hosted literally hundreds of woofers from europe in the 8 years I spent in oceana 2006-2014. A very surprising number considered america to be a violent and dangerous place. Almost none had an interest in working in america or even visiting for more than a short stopover. The middle east, south america, and oceana seems to be what's on young european's minds as places of opportunity if they want to expat. Of course it's a biased sample since most woofers are well educated and usually from better families.

124   Bigsby   2015 Apr 27, 8:09am  

bob2356 says

They weren't talking about the prison population, they were talking about the entire population. That was the joke. I've hosted literally hundreds of woofers from europe in the 8 years I spent in oceana 2006-2014. A very surprising number considered america to be a violent and dangerous place.

Why is that remotely surprising? All Europeans think the US is a dangerous and violent place because of gun crime.
I too have met a great many Europeans (I am one). If they want to work abroad, they generally go where the best job offers are. If they want to make the move permanent, then it's generally to other European countries or the US.
I've never heard anyone talk about the population of the US in terms of living in a low level prison.

As for what I consider an actual police state, well, it would require a far more overarching control of the population by the government through the police than the examples you outlined.

125   bob2356   2015 Apr 27, 11:40am  

Bigsby says

I too have met a great many Europeans (I am one). If they want to work abroad, they generally go where the best job offers are. If they want to make the move permanent, then it's generally to other European countries or the US.

That is surprising. I've met very few western european expats in the states as permanent residents. Eastern europeons doing menial jobs are common. I've met lots in costa rica, hong kong, singapore, and all over oceana, I've met a lot in the UAE, but there are no permanent residencies there, only work permits.

126   Bigsby   2015 Apr 27, 11:50am  

bob2356 says

That is surprising. I've met very few western european expats in the states as permanent residents.

I don't even live permanently in CA, and I've met plenty. The places you list are little pockets, so the expat population is bound to be more concentrated. Hong Kong and Singapore are major British expat destinations for obvious reasons.

127   bob2356   2015 Apr 27, 12:50pm  

Bigsby says

bob2356 says

That is surprising. I've met very few western european expats in the states as permanent residents.

I don't even live permanently in CA, and I've met plenty. The places you list are little pockets, so the expat population is bound to be more concentrated. Hong Kong and Singapore are major British expat destinations for obvious reasons.

I don't do california so I don't have a clue what goes on there. I haven't seen many WE expats in most of the other parts of the country and I've been travelling around a LOT this last year. NYC metro area some but not as many is I remember, other places no. The length and breadth of Oceania (tahiti to perth, new guinea to tasmania) where I have travelled extensively the last 8 years is hardly a pocket. Interacting with so many of them, I really don't think the US has much allure any more for europeans under 30. There are lots better opportunities out there. Why would a successful person want to become permanent in the US? The tax implications are simply horrible. If I weren't a US citizen I would no way, no how consider it unless there were some huge payoff.

Ok, I'm sick of guessing at this, looked it up. European immigrants to the US have been dropping steadily for 50 years both in numbers and percentages. It's down from 75% of permanent residents being european born to 12% (4.4 million down from 7.2 million) in 50 years. Half are from eastern europe. About 2/3 live in NY,CA,FL,IL,NJ. Well I don't do florida either so my only shot at seeing them was ny/nj. My gut feeling was it seemed like the numbers in NY/NJ were way down from when I lived there in the 60/70's.

128   indigenous   2015 Apr 27, 4:46pm  

bob2356 says

Aha, now we have tantamount. So cronyism is tantamount to socialism even with private companies making huge profits.

Yup things don't workout as nicely in reality as in your theories. I would say there is no such thing as a pure either but that the practical differences between Fascism and Communism are not worth worrying about.

bob2356 says

Well you just made the US the most socialist country in the world.

Certainly these days.

bob2356 says

The Economist said of von Mises: "Professor von Mises has a splendid analytical mind and an admirable passion for liberty; but as a student of human nature he is worse than null" which about sums it up. Great ideas that are totally impractical in the real world with real people.

And Forbes says:

"he was the greatest social thinker of the twentieth century."

And what do you subscribe to? Or do you do more than incessant carping? Followed by self-congratulation without ever saying what is right about anything only what is wrong.

129   Bigsby   2015 Apr 27, 7:31pm  

bob2356 says

There are lots better opportunities out there. Why would a successful person want to become permanent in the US? The tax implications are simply horrible.

Why are the tax implications horrible for a Westerner? Your taxes would look pretty reasonable to someone from the UK, for example. And the opportunities are entirely dependent on what your career is, surely. If you want to work in film or tech, for example, then what better place than CA? Even your graph shows that there are still a great many Europeans making the move, so I'm not sure what your point is. Of course the numbers are down from some parts of Europe, but then the European economy is much stronger overall than it was in say the 60s and 70s. You are still talking millions of people making a very major move.

130   zzyzzx   2015 Apr 27, 7:42pm  

Are we becoming a police state?

National Guard will be here any minute now!!!

131   komputodo   2015 Apr 27, 8:02pm  

Bigsby says

That still doesn't make it a police state. Phrases like that are thrown around too easily.

You're just arguing semantics.

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