patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

Social Security

Which will be toast within 15yr, not to mention that a person would have ended up with much more money if he would have invested the money privately.

thunderlips11 says

Clean Water

Like in Calif with 80% of it being subsidized, not to mention that we have a drought.

thunderlips11 says

the Space Program

So What

thunderlips11 says

the Industrialization of Britain and the USA

Which has nothing to do with government.

thunderlips11 says

ludicrous amounts of paved highway

Which would have been much much much cheaper if privatized as there would have been no Davis Bacon or public unions involved.

thunderlips11 says

widespread home ownership

Which has nothing to do with government and was only made worse by government.

thunderlips11 says

near-universal literacy

And would have been higher if not for the public indoctrination system. Not to mention Calif for instance has the some of the highest paid teachers in the country with almost the worst test scores in the country.

thunderlips11 says

The end game of Maximizing Utility means everybody is poor except one person or group - unless you have redistribution of wealth, of course.

And even the poorest are better off than the richest of many countries. Not to mention that the worse case of inequality is when the Fed has meddled the most as in NOW and in the 20s.

No your arguments are complete bullshit.

mell says

bob2356 says

So no the term national socialist in context of the times had nothing at all to do with socialism.

Indy is right here. The NSDAP was the quintessential melt of socialism and patriotism. There is a debate in Germany about how socialist/leftist and how fascist it was, but nobody would deny that socialism was a huge part of the NSDAP and Hitler.

indigenous says

This was the socialism instituted by the Nazis. And Mises calls it socialism on the German or Nazi pattern, in contrast to the more obvious socialism of the Soviets, which he calls socialism on the Russian or Bolshevik pattern.

When the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. Mises calls every government system on the planet short of anarchy socialist.

What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

And how did mises "show" that? What private owners for christ sakes. These were corporations. Does mises have the vaguest clue what a corporation is or what stockholders are? Many of these corporations were US. http://www.globalresearch.ca/profits-ber-alles-american-corporations-and-hitler/4607 They made huge profits under the Nazi's. The first thing the nazi's did was to kill or put in jail all the union leaders along with all the socialists and communist then disband all unions. Who do you think the concentration camps were full of before they started arresting the jews?

So in mises and indigenous's strange world if a government orders from a corporation then it's a socialist system because the government controls what is ordered even if the corporation is selling to private customers also. You guys are too weird for words.

The nazi's (up until the shooting started then they ordered industry around to SOME degree, just like america did) placed orders with business. Business filled the orders. Many of the biggest corporations in germany were subsidiaries of US corporations. Show where the nazi's dictated dividends (what the fuck is other income in a corporaton?) for Ford, GM, IBM, or Texaco. The german subsidiaries of US corporations (as well as german corporations) made huge profits all through the war. After pearl harbour president Roosevelt himself discreetly issued an edict allowing American corporations to do business with enemy countries — or with neutral countries that were friendly with enemies — by means of a special authorization even though it was clearly trading with the enemy and illegal. Hmmm. Many corporations, including US corporations, were able to use slave labor provided by the nazis. Some of these profits were secretly repatriated to the US after the war. The US government paid these corporations compensation for bombing damage to their factories.

This is socialism? How?

anonymous says

I listened to most of the podcast

That makes you better than 99% of the denizens here.

anonymous says

There is no doubt in my mind this particular question was chosen with great care as well, knowing beyond a reasonable doubt the average person regardless of profession (lawyers in this case) is not going to be able to rattle off the answer and the chances of it ever happening are too few and far between to worry about.

If you say so, I got 4 out of the 5.

anonymous says

It gets more ingenious though when he proceeds to challenge anyone in attendance to answer him in a public forum with the warning that he is going to call them on it, if they attempt to do so.

Meh, this sounds a little paranoid, especially for a group of generally flamboyant types

anonymous says

One other thing he does very subtly and shrewdly to add credence to the next part is too quickly mention the laws enacted immediately after 9-11 but does not spend any time on who was responsible for this and quickly moves on.

I don't think he is any fan of Bush either.

anonymous says

My bottom line – dig deeper with this guy, what are the true motives or purpose? It might also be worthwhile just to mention that these are views of Libertarian Party supporters.

I'm correlating 2 of a few articles, including the one on Zero Hedge, and news items that indicate that we are indeed becoming a police state.

bob2356 says

And how did mises "show" that?

How about empirically where Germany was turned into a war machine right down to producing Aryan babies.

bob2356 says

They made huge profits under the Nazi's.

So the apparatchiks don't have cronys? They go hand in glove. bob2356 says

The first thing the nazi's did was to kill or put in jail all the union leaders along with all the socialists and communist then disband all unions.

Yea and Stalin was a big fan of unions?

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

You guys are too weird for words.

Ad Hominem
.

bob2356 says

This is socialism? How?

Price controls on all the business, which of course the bigger business can ignore because the fines just become a part of doing business but the smaller business not so much. It pushes small business towards the black market. But once the government creates fear that impinges it changes the behavior of business.

It creates a culture that turns one citizen against another so you can police the people through spying. Since the system is unworkable from the get go, so the leaders have to expose some cabal in order to keep up the charade with plenty of fear inducing executions.

indigenous says

How about empirically

indigenous says

It creates a culture

You forgot meme and mutts as part of your standard answer when you have no rational quantifiable evidence. So document where dividends were controlled on corporations under the nazi's. I'll be waiting, but the sun will probably go supernova first.

indigenous says

ob2356 says

They made huge profits under the Nazi's.

So the apparatchiks don't have cronys? They go hand in glove.

They go hand in glove? There are no profits under socialism. That's the very definition of socialism. Unless of course you are one of those special people that believes that everything other than anarchy is socialism.

bob2356 says

They go hand in glove? There are no profits under socialism. That's the very definition of socialism. Unless of course you are one of those special people that believes that everything other than anarchy is socialism.

Talking about a non-existent utopia or dystopia accomplishes nothing. Every system has profits and in a socialist/communist system 99% of the profits are enjoyed by the ruling government and the people close to them running the biggest "corporations". That's why it is essentially not much different from fascism (i.e. "red-painted fascists"). During the rise of the NSDAP and Hitler, proletarian organisations almost instantly switched from flashing the sowjet star symbol to flashing the swastika, the same people walking in the streets commiserating and protesting the death of (jewish) Kurt Eisner (murdered by a radical "right-winger", Hitler joined this marched as well). Quite a lot of still present "socialist" laws were signed or enhanced during the Nazi regime or strengthened. It's fascinating and scary how the left has created that imagery of left=good vs right=bad while - without any doubt - the most radical and deadly regimes ever existed on this planet all rooted in left-wing socialism/communism, the "red-painted" equivalent of traditional fascism.

bob2356 says

You forgot meme and mutts as part of your standard answer when you have no rational quantifiable evidence. So document where dividends were controlled on corporations under the nazi's. I'll be waiting, but the sun will probably go supernova first.

Are you implying that corporations in key industries were not nationalized by Hitler?

bob2356 says

They go hand in glove? There are no profits under socialism. That's the very definition of socialism. Unless of course you are one of those special people that believes that everything other than anarchy is socialism.

So that would imply that the apparatchiks don't enjoy a better standard of living? But they do just like public union members pursuing their personal interests under the protection/guise of public servant.

And yup I am one of those "special people" who prefer insight to regurgitating history without conceptional understanding.

indigenous says

And yup I am one of those "special people" who prefer insight to regurgitating history without conceptional understanding.

Thanks for the laugh.

Bigsby says

Thanks for the laugh.

Back at ya

anonymous says

The author does has valid points

But this is far from the only story...

I suppose the other extreme is Gary, but he has more validity than people give him credit for.

The main point is that the status quo meme that everything is fine that this is business as usual is dead wrong.

Are we becoming a police state?

NO. We've been a police state for quite some time. Now people are filming it and posting it on youtube.

elliemae says

Are we becoming a police state?

NO. We've been a police state for quite some time. Now people are filming it and posting it on youtube.

You don't have a police state. You just have a very heavy-handed police force that's been given too much ex-military equipment.

Bigsby says

You don't have a police state. You just have a very heavy-handed police force that's been given too much ex-military equipment.

Does anyone else see what is wrong with this picture?

indigenous says

Bigsby says

You don't have a police state. You just have a very heavy-handed police force that's been given too much ex-military equipment.

Does anyone else see what is wrong with this picture?

That you have a heavy-handed police force with too much ex-military equipment? Do I win a prize? It still doesn't make your country a police state. It just shows that internet forums are places for hyperbole.

Bigsby says

Do I win a prize?

Getting close, yes.

Oh, CiC, you're so funny. Your ever original posts always make me laugh.

A friend of mine who is married to a cop said that the difference between how she looks at people and he looks at people is this: She starts them at a "10" and they have to earn her distrust. He starts them at a "1" and they have to earn his trust.

Cameras are wonderful things, but many officers don't like them....
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/22/us/california-marshal-smashed-phone/index.html

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

Oh, CiC, you're so funny.

It wasn't a joke....

Duh, you don't say, though you calling someone else a troll is so laughably hypocritical it is actually funny.

elliemae says

He starts them at a "1" and they have to earn his trust.

Police work attracts this element of society. Once someone was telling me that they got into police work in order to help people but quickly realized that cops are assholes and got out of it. Not to say all of them are but certainly a higher percentage. This characteristic gets further imprinted on them after years of dealing with bullshit.

Call it Crazy says

Plus, you've started all of 2 threads for discussion in 3-1/2 years...

Since you've started the same 2 threads 800 times each in that same period, I'm gonna say Bigsby is a better contributor.

Being declared the dumbest member of this forum - as opposed to your previous position as the 2nd-dumbest fucktard - must have left a mark on what's left of your ego. You are noticeably crankier than before.

HydroCabron says

Being declared the dumbest member of this forum - as opposed to your previous position as the 2nd-dumbest fucktard - must have left a mark on what's left of your ego. You are noticeably crankier than before.

Said the mutt, pinche cabron

indigenous says

Which has nothing to do with government.

Everything to do with Government. UK for 300 years prior to the 19th Century carried out a policy of destroying wool and linen manufacturing on the continent, paying Burgundian Burghers to move to England, refusing to export Fuller's Earth and Wool, including raw wool as reparations in peace treaties, and buying up surplus wool from around Europe.

The US had high tariffs on manufacturing, otherwise, we'd be like Mexico, that did not.

indigenous says

And would have been higher if not for the public indoctrination system. Not to mention Calif for instance has the some of the highest paid teachers in the country with almost the worst test scores in the country.

There is so much "duh" here I can't even be arsed. The illiteracy rate in late 19th Century Britain before Government Schooling was about 30%. It was over 80% in Scotland, where schools were supported by law. It's also how the Scots came to dominate British Intellectual, Business, and Literary Life.

thunderlips11 says

The US had high tariffs on manufacturing, otherwise, we'd be like Mexico, that did not.

And you would say this was the main reason for the industrial revolution???

thunderlips11 says

The illiteracy rate in late 19th Century Britain before Government Schooling was about 30%. It was over 80% in Scotland, where schools were supported by law. It's also how the Scots came to dominate British Intellectual, Business, and Literary Life.

My understanding is that the literacy rate in the US in the late 19th century was very high, maybe even higher than todays standards, which is a very low bar.

indigenous says

My understanding is that the literacy rate in the US in the late 19th century was very high, maybe even higher than todays standards, which is a very low bar.

Many states had public education.

thunderlips11 says

Many states had public education.

They have that now, would you say the literacy rate is better now?

indigenous says

They have that now, would you say the literacy rate is better now?

Yeah, it's well-nigh 100%. And consider that 2/3 of the public has college or some college education to boot, pretty damned impressive.

What percentage of the population went to college in 1880, Laissez-Faire golden years?

Here's a picture of Glorious Laissez-Faire America for you.

One boy is "James Leonard", the other is "Stanley Rasmus". Taken outside Pittsburg, PA circa 1908-1912

10 hour days.

Hiram Polk, age 9, working at a cannery:

"I ain't very fast only about 5 boxes a day. They pay about 5 cents a box," he said. Eastport, Maine.

Taken from:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor

thunderlips11 says

And consider that 2/3 of the public has college or some college education to boot, pretty damned impressive.

I still question how literate they are now. Seriously look at the denizens of Pat.net, what percentage would you say are literate? This means understand what they read. E.G. understand what the word Fascism means, I asked you and Bigsby over and over yet you would not answer.

Look at this example from 1907

https://books.google.com/books?id=2DMAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA914&lpg=PA914&dq=machinists+diary&source=bl&ots=PSLwKNavkc&sig=2E4r8e-wi_wGeU3jBu3GjMNiNOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eok9VeK2HJe5ogT0hoDoBA&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=machinists%20diary&f=false

or the fact that Thomas Paine sold 500,000 copies of Common Sense in 1776

or the fact that Dickens was a rock star during those times.

All of this requires a literate audience.

This from this:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/12/16/literacy

Not only does it find that the average literacy of college educated Americans declined significantly from 1992 to 2003, but it also reveals that just 25 percent of college graduates -- and only 31 percent of those with at least some graduate studies -- scored high enough on the tests to be deemed "proficient" from a literacy standpoint, which the government defines as "using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

indigenous says

Not only does it find that the average literacy of college educated Americans declined significantly from 1992 to 2003, but it also reveals that just 25 percent of college graduates -- and only 31 percent of those with at least some graduate studies -- scored high enough on the tests to be deemed "proficient" from a literacy standpoint, which the government defines as "using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

I want to see evidence that due to Public Schooling, Literacy declined.

indigenous says

or the fact that Thomas Paine sold 500,000 copies of Common Sense in 1776

* US Presses couldn't print in such quantities
* 500,000 was the total number of all households in North America, including Canada
* Population largely rural and far from printing press
* Many households were illiterate.
* At least 1/3rd of British North America was Loyalist.
* Paine himself had no idea as he got no royalties for Common Sense, he guessed 120k and then 150k years later - of course, he was also a printer himself and a bit of book hustler himself.
http://allthingsliberty.com/2013/03/thomas-paines-inflated-numbers/

indigenous says

Splain me

Henry Luce, Clair Boothe Luce were Republicans. Time Magazine is not considered liberal by normal people.

Call it Crazy says

Looks like there are at least 13 others that agree with me..

Call it Crazy says

Plus, you've started all of 2 threads for discussion in 3-1/2 years... With you, it's ALL about useless comments in other people's threads...

Seems like you've earned those troll bucks!!

Damn, do you ever come up with anything novel? How many times have you repeated this exact same thing? It's even the same screen shot you used before. Try and think of something new to say. Try and then fail to do so.

thunderlips11 says

I want to see evidence that due to Public Schooling, Literacy declined.

What you talking about Willis?

thunderlips11 says

500,000 was the total number of all households in North America, including Canada

Fair enough but the point is still that a large percentage of the citizens did read it such that from your article:

"Common Sense did enjoy remarkable popularity and it likely had a significant impact, loosening the tone and the terms of the grand debate over independence."

IOW there was considerable literacy back then.

From you article, the definition of "Proficient"

It assesses three types of literacy: "prose literacy," which is the ability to comprehend continuous texts, like newspaper articles and the brochure that comes with a new microwave; "document literacy," the ability to understand and use documents to perform tasks, like reading a map or prescription labels; and "quantitative literacy," which are the skills needed to do things like balancing a checkbook or calculating the interest on a loan from an advertisement.

Based on their scores, participants in the survey were deemed to have "basic," "intermediate" or "proficient" literacy (Whitehurst noted that a National Research Council committee that recommended the literacy levels initially called the highest level "advanced," but that department officials ultimately concluded that the skills required for that category -- comparing viewpoints in two editorials, for instance, or calculating the cost per ounce of different grocery items -- weren't really all that advanced.)

I also don't see how calculating the cost per ounce of different grocery items is a measure of "Literacy" in the first place:

To make it even funnier, the schmucks who did this study made up "Quantitative Literacy" instead of using "Numeracy", showing they "ain't all that literate" themselves by not using a long standing, and not terribly obscure, English word to describe command of mathematics.

But be that as it may, their "Proficient" was originally named "Advanced", the highest level of 3 their "Literacy"(-Numeracy) rankings. So, surprise, that 25% of college students were advanced and 31% of grad students also.

indigenous says

Fair enough but the point is still that a large percentage of the citizens did read it such that from your article:

Read it or have it read to them by a literate person. No disagreement there.

Call it Crazy says

Nope, new screen shot, nothing changed (except troll comments)...

Strange that I don't have anyone on ignore...

Call it Crazy says

Try to start a new discussion instead of the same trolling you do day in, day out...

What exactly do you do every day except post repetitively trollish comments and press the dislike button on every post I make? Oh, I forgot, you also go around pressing the like button on your own posts.

thunderlips11 says

But be that as it may, their "Proficient" was originally named "Advanced", the highest level of 3 their "Literacy"(-Numeracy) rankings. So, surprise, that 25% of college students were advanced and 31% of grad students also.

That was the first thing I grabbed off of Google. The point is still the same and you have not countered it to any degree. The literacy rate today might be lower than the late 1880s? Not saying it is but might be.

Call it Crazy says

http://patrick.net/about.php?user_ID=22641

You really are as screwed up in the head as Gary...

My mistake. I didn't think I had anyone on ignore. It is, however, still something you've posted multiple times before. And it is also utterly irrelevant to me saying that you are a hypocrite accusing someone else of being a troll. Again what exactly do you do day after day on here?

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

press the dislike button on every post I make? Oh, I forgot, you also go around pressing the like button on your own posts.

Wrong and wrong... But I can Start disliking your posts if that will make you happy!!

Sure, sure. That must explain all those posts you have with 6 or so dislikes and one like. And it's interesting how you are always around when I get a single dislike on a post that is totally innocuous...

Call it Crazy says

Go to this link:

http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=22641

And tell us what you actually posted in ANY of those comments that ADDED helpful information to that thread, that wasn't just your every day keyboard diarrhea..

Should we play the same game with your posts? I don't have the kind of inordinate amount of free time that some on here seem to have. I make quick and pithy remarks to things that I can see are blatantly incorrect. Read that UN report on murder rates by any chance?

Call it Crazy says

You seem to have the time the last few days. What happened, did they up your troll post quota for each day? You've worked hard today and earned this:

A handful of short posts over the weekend. Wow. What is your excuse? A retired imbecile with nothing better to do? Still think the US would be fourth bottom in murder rates if you removed those four cities, or were you (of course) just trolling as usual?