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Bitcoin and Crypto-currency


               
2017 Nov 5, 3:36pm   123,090 views  643 comments

by BayArea   follow (1)  

#investing

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.

What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.

For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?

Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?

I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.

At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.

Thanks guys!

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608   ElYorsh   2025 Nov 4, 9:30pm  

AD says

Incredible that on 22 October 2025, Bitcoin bottomed in intraday trading around $103,000.

Now only five days later, Bitcoin is up around 13% from that intraday low.

Exchanges and crypto billionaires are gaming the crypto world.
609   Misc   2025 Nov 4, 9:44pm  

ElYorsh says

Exchanges and crypto billionaires are gaming the crypto world.


Markets ???? Manipulated ???? --- Oh, heaven forbid.
610   AD   2025 Nov 5, 10:50am  

very few times does Bitcoin price hit the top band of the chart and then reach the bottom band of the chart except for 2014 to 2016

the key is to reduce volatility in order to sustain the asset class and to maintain enough trust in it to ensure there are enough traders and investors


611   AD   2025 Nov 5, 11:07am  

If there are frequent periods of extreme volatility like Bitcoin's price reaches the red region of the rainbow chart and then quickly drops to the green and blue region, then that will create more distrust of Bitcoin.

It will gain a reputation of being too volatile and too speculative of an asset, and it will lose enough confidence in enough traders and investors to prevent it from being a sustainable alternate asset class like silver and gold.
612   AD   2025 Nov 8, 1:45am  

JPMorgan chief global strategist David Kelly said based on current allocations and valuations alone, “many investors should likely consider diversifying their portfolios by adding alternative assets and international stocks.”

Some examples of alternative assets are real estate, commodities like gold and cryptocurrencies. When it comes to real estate, investors don’t need to directly own properties. They can opt for real estate investment trusts (REITs) or REIT exchange-traded funds (ETFs).

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/america-going-broke-slowly-says-113000037.html
614   AD   2025 Nov 8, 9:22pm  



615   AD   2025 Nov 8, 10:00pm  



616   AD   2025 Nov 16, 2:58pm  

Bitcoin ETF net flows


617   AD   2025 Nov 17, 11:57pm  

Yes—repo market stress and broader liquidity tightening are likely contributing to Bitcoin’s recent price drop. While Bitcoin isn’t directly tied to traditional funding markets, it’s highly sensitive to global liquidity conditions, which are being strained by elevated repo rates, quantitative tightening (QT), and Treasury issuance.

🧠 How Repo Stress Affects Bitcoin
• Liquidity Drain: When repo rates spike, it signals tighter short-term funding. This pulls cash out of risk assets like Bitcoin, especially from institutional players using leverage.
• QT and Treasury Supply: The Fed’s balance sheet runoff and heavy Treasury issuance absorb market liquidity, leaving less room for speculative assets.
• ETF Absorption: Bitcoin ETFs are soaking up supply, but passive flows don’t offset the liquidity crunch fast enough to support prices.
618   FortWayneHatesRealtors   2025 Nov 18, 6:17am  

Patrick I got an idea. Sell Patrick.net coins. Free money and plenty of fools with money burning their pocket will buy anything these days.

Make money on transactions and you can turn video game score into profitable business.
619   AD   2025 Nov 18, 11:33am  

FortWayneHatesRealtors says

Patrick I got an idea. Sell Patrick.net coins. Free money and plenty of fools with money burning their pocket will buy anything these days.

Make money on transactions and you can turn video game score into profitable business.


=========================

BlackRock CEO Larry Fink has made a dramatic pivot on Bitcoin in 2025, calling it a legitimate asset class and predicting it could reach $700,000 if sovereign wealth funds allocate just 2–5% of their portfolios to it.

🧠 Key Statements from Larry Fink in 2025
• Price Prediction: At the World Economic Forum in Davos, Fink said Bitcoin could hit $500,000 to $700,000 if institutional adoption scales—especially from sovereign wealth funds considering 2–5% allocations.
• Institutional Embrace: He noted that BlackRock is actively engaging with global funds about Bitcoin exposure, signaling a new era of mainstream adoption.
• Reputation Reversal: In an October 2025 interview, Fink acknowledged his past skepticism—once calling Bitcoin a “money laundering index”—but now says, “The market teaches you to always rethink your assumptions”.
• Safe-Haven Comparison: At the Global Financial Leaders’ Summit in Hong Kong, Fink compared Bitcoin to gold, calling it a “growing safe-haven asset” amid global uncertainty.
• ETF Success: BlackRock’s iShares Bitcoin Trust (IBIT) has become one of its top-performing ETFs, managing nearly $100 billion in assets
620   AD   2025 Nov 19, 12:19am  

Bitcoin’s all-time high price was approximately $126,080, reached on October 6, 2025. It recently dropped to $89,000, so about a 30% crash.

• Most crashes last 6–12 months, with drawdowns of 70–85% during speculative bubbles.
• Post-halving years often see volatility as markets digest supply changes and macro shifts.
• Recent cycles show smaller drawdowns, possibly due to institutional ETF flows and maturing markets.


621   AD   2025 Nov 19, 10:22am  

Notice there was no rally to the upper half of the rainbow chart after the last halving such as to the red region. And its been at least 3.5 years the Bitcoin price has remained in the bottom half of the rainbow chart.


622   AD   2025 Nov 19, 10:41am  

Similar chart, notice it has not reached the upper band for last few years


624   Patrick   2025 Nov 20, 11:41am  

FortWayneHatesRealtors says


Sell Patrick.net coins.


I don't want to take advantage of anyone. I did have the idea that there ought to be a way to transfer ownership of specific silver coins on the internet, with the option to get physical delivery.

Not sure exactly how it could work though. Say there were a set of little lockers like PO boxes. You could simply send the password to the box as payment. But how to know the coin is really there without going to the box? It would require someone who could be trusted to maintain the boxes and not just steal everything. I suppose that almost the definition of a bank, at least as banks were originally set up.

Or maybe each coin could have a serial number, and the ownership of that number could be tracked.

Obviously this is half-baked, but it would tie electronic payment to real physical silver.
625   AD   2025 Nov 20, 7:03pm  

Bitcoin holdings: El Salvador holds approximately 7,474 Bitcoin, valued at about $700 million as of mid-November 2025.

Lack of a traditional sovereign fund: The country has not established a traditional sovereign wealth fund for its Bitcoin holdings, so there is no public figure for how much of a specific fund is allocated to Bitcoin.

Comparison to GDP: The $700 million in Bitcoin is approximately 1.6% of El Salvador's GDP, according to VanEck data, but this is not a measure of a sovereign fund.

..................................

As of October 16, 2025, the U.S. federal government holds an estimated 325,447 bitcoins (BTC). The total value of the government's crypto holdings was approximately $29.7 billion as of November 2025, according to Arkham Intelligence data.

How the U.S. government acquired Bitcoin

The government has historically acquired bitcoin through seizures from criminal and civil asset forfeiture proceedings. The forfeited bitcoin often comes from crimes such as dark web marketplaces and large-scale fraud operations.

A significant seizure of 127,271 bitcoins occurred in October 2025, which increased the total holdings to over 325,000 BTC.

On March 6, 2025, President Donald Trump signed an executive order establishing a Strategic Bitcoin Reserve to hold the forfeited bitcoin. The government previously had a history of auctioning off seized crypto, but the new order restricts sales.
626   AD   2025 Nov 21, 1:21am  

Details on Eric Trump’s Bitcoin Exposure
• American Bitcoin Corp: Founded in March 2025 by Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., headquartered in Miami.
• Holdings: As of early November 2025, the company’s treasury reached 4,004 BTC, after acquiring 139 more coins during the October–November market sell-off.
• Valuation: At ~$104,000 per BTC (early November average), this equals about $415 million in Bitcoin.
• Ranking: American Bitcoin is now among the top 25 largest public Bitcoin treasuries globally.
• Eric Trump’s Role: He serves as co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer, meaning his exposure is tied to the company’s holdings rather than a disclosed personal wallet.
627   Misc   2025 Nov 21, 7:57pm  

Theoretically crypto can only go to zero...theoretically.

Crypto is a world-wide thingy: . https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/bitcoin-ownership-by-country

It now on average costs considerably more to mine a bitcoin than it is worth given electric costs.

Dunno how far down it has to go before it hits the event horizon.
628   FortWayneHatesRealtors   2025 Nov 21, 8:08pm  

AD says

Details on Eric Trump’s Bitcoin Exposure
• American Bitcoin Corp: Founded in March 2025 by Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., headquartered in Miami.
• Holdings: As of early November 2025, the company’s treasury reached 4,004 BTC, after acquiring 139 more coins during the October–November market sell-off.
• Valuation: At ~$104,000 per BTC (early November average), this equals about $415 million in Bitcoin.
• Ranking: American Bitcoin is now among the top 25 largest public Bitcoin treasuries globally.
• Eric Trump’s Role: He serves as co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer, meaning his exposure is tied to the company’s holdings rather than a disclosed personal wallet.


If they are so smart why is Trump stock in the red?
629   AD   2025 Nov 21, 9:48pm  

Misc says

It now on average costs considerably more to mine a bitcoin than it is worth given electric costs.


You’re right to flag that—recent data shows the average cost to mine one Bitcoin has surged above its market price, largely due to electricity costs and network difficulty.

📊 Current Mining Economics (Nov 2025)
• Average Mining Cost per BTC: ~$95,000–$105,000 (depending on region and energy source).
• Market Price of BTC: ~$89,000 after the recent 30% drop.
• Result: Many miners are operating at a loss of $6,000–$15,000 per coin.

⚡ Why Costs Are So High
• Energy Prices: U.S. electricity rates have risen sharply, especially in states like Texas and Florida where many miners operate.
• Network Difficulty: Bitcoin’s mining difficulty hit record highs in 2025, requiring more computational power per block.
• Halving Effect: The April 2024 halving cut block rewards from 6.25 BTC to 3.125 BTC, doubling the effective cost per coin.
• Cooling & Infrastructure: Rising temperatures in mining hubs (Texas, Middle East) increased cooling costs.

🧠 Implications
• Miner Capitulation Risk: Smaller miners may shut down or sell reserves, adding downward pressure on BTC.
• Shift to Low-Cost Regions: Mining is increasingly concentrated in areas with cheap hydro/nuclear power (e.g., Paraguay, Quebec, Kazakhstan).
• ETF & Treasury Dynamics: With mining unprofitable, institutional buyers (ETFs, corporate treasuries) become the main source of new demand.

✅ In short: Yes—on average, it now costs more to mine a Bitcoin than it’s worth, a classic sign of miner stress and potential capitulation.
630   AD   2025 Nov 21, 9:53pm  

What Happens Next
1. Short-Term (2025–2027)
• Consolidation: Smaller miners exit; large firms with cheap energy (hydro, nuclear, flare gas) dominate.
• Geographic Shift: Mining migrates to Paraguay, Quebec, Kazakhstan, and Middle East energy hubs.
• Price Pressure: If BTC stays below mining cost, supply shrinks as miners shut down, which paradoxically can stabilize price.
2. 2028 Halving
• Rewards Drop Again: Block reward falls from 3.125 → 1.5625 BTC.
• Mining Economics: Cost per coin could exceed $150K unless BTC price rises significantly.
• Security Question: Lower rewards mean miners rely more on transaction fees. If fees don’t rise, network security could be stressed.
• Market Response: Historically, halvings have preceded major bull runs (2012, 2016, 2020, 2024). Investors anticipate scarcity, often driving price higher.
3. Long-Term (Post‑2028)
• Fee Market Evolution: Bitcoin must transition from block rewards to transaction fees as the main miner incentive.
• Institutional Role: ETFs, corporate treasuries, and sovereign reserves (like El Salvador’s) may become the dominant buyers, offsetting miner sell pressure.
• Price Outlook: If adoption continues, BTC likely needs to trade well above $150K to keep mining profitable after 2028.

🧠 Big Picture
• If BTC price lags mining cost → miner consolidation, fee reliance, possible short-term volatility.
• If BTC price surges post-halving (historical pattern) → mining remains viable, and scarcity narrative strengthens.
• Critical Transition: The 2028 halving is a turning point where Bitcoin shifts closer to a fee-driven security model.

✅ In short: Mining stress now is a preview of what’s coming. After the 2028 halving, Bitcoin will either need a major price increase or a stronger fee market to sustain network security.
Would you like me to build a scenario table showing BTC mining cost vs. price projections for 2028–2032 under different energy and adoption assumptions? That would make the trade-offs crystal clear.
631   AD   2025 Nov 21, 10:01pm  

FortWayneHatesRealtors says

If they are so smart why is Trump stock in the red?


This is what Eric Trump and American Bitcoin Inc is planning as far as leveraging "large scale or industrial-scale operations" for Bitcoin mining and earning fees from Bitcoin transaction processing.

...................

What This Means Post-2028 Halving
• Mining Consolidation: Smaller miners in high-cost regions will likely shut down, leaving only industrial-scale operations in cheap energy hubs.
• Fee Market Transition: As block rewards shrink, transaction fees must rise to sustain network security.
• Price Pressure: Historically, halvings have preceded bull runs. For mining to remain viable, BTC likely needs to trade well above $100K after 2028.
632   AD   2025 Nov 21, 10:02pm  

Eric Trump's American Bitcoin Inc. (NASDAQ: ABTC) is aggressively scaling into industrial‑scale mining operations, aiming to become one of the largest U.S. Bitcoin infrastructure providers.

📊 Current Expansion Plans
• Massive Hashrate Growth: In September 2025, American Bitcoin expanded its installed mining capacity from ~10 EH/s to ~24 EH/s, a 2.4x increase.
• ASIC Fleet: The company energized ~16,300 ASIC servers with an average fleet efficiency of 16.4 joules per terahash (J/TH).
• Merger Strategy: A 2025 merger with Gryphon Digital Mining boosted reserves to 4,090 BTC (~$391M) and expanded mining scale.
• Revenue Impact: Q3 2025 revenue jumped to $64.2M, up 453% year‑over‑year, with gross margins improving to 56%.

🧠 Strategic Positioning
• Hybrid Model: Unlike pure treasury vehicles (like MicroStrategy), American Bitcoin combines direct BTC purchases with industrial‑scale mining, giving it a structural cost advantage.
• Infrastructure Backbone: The company brands itself as building “America’s Bitcoin infrastructure backbone”, signaling ambitions to rival global mining giants.
• Energy Efficiency: By deploying next‑gen ASICs and optimizing power contracts, ABTC aims to mine BTC at a discount to market prices.
• Treasury Growth: With over 4,000 BTC already held, ABTC is positioning itself as both a miner and a corporate Bitcoin treasury proxy.

⚠️ Challenges Ahead
• Market Volatility: Despite strong operations, ABTC’s stock dropped after Q3 earnings due to broader crypto sell‑offs.
• Energy Costs: Sustaining profitability depends on securing cheap electricity contracts, especially post‑2028 halving.
• Competition: Firms like Marathon Digital and Riot Platforms remain larger, so ABTC must keep scaling to compete.

✅ In summary: American Bitcoin Inc. is scaling industrial mining capacity to ~24 EH/s, running 16,300 ASICs, and merging with Gryphon Digital Mining to build a U.S. Bitcoin infrastructure backbone. Its hybrid mining + treasury model is designed to accumulate BTC at a structural discount, though profitability depends on energy costs and post‑halving economics.
633   Misc   2025 Nov 21, 10:28pm  

With only $2 million in cash, it won't take long before it hits the capital markets for more cash infusions or starts selling its holdings to pay the bills. Nothing says long term viability quite like cannibalization..
634   AD   2025 Nov 21, 11:23pm  

Misc says

With only $2 million in cash, it won't take long before it hits the capital markets for more cash infusions or starts selling its holdings to pay the bills.


As of Sept 2025, American Bitcoin Inc (owned by Eric Trump) has about $8 million in cash and net equity of $1.05 billion.

I understand your point that it needs cash to operate, and it may need to secure another loan or sell off existing assets (i.e., Bitcoin) to convert to cash.

We shall see how long the Bitcoin sell off continues since it started about 6 weeks ago when Bitcoin reached an all time high of around $126,000.
635   AD   2025 Nov 23, 4:22pm  

WTF ? ? ?

.......................

https://beincrypto.com/us-government-bitcoin-crash-microstrategy-fact-check/

Allegedly, US government officials wanted MicroStrategy’s market value to net asset value (mNAV) near 1.0 and therefore manufactured a crash on Bitcoin to compress the premium.

“The US is contemplating a multi-billion-dollar investment in MSTR, and they needed the mNAV to be 1 before it made sense for them to invest, so they manufactured a crash on bitcoin,” wrote Teddy, a popular user on X (Twitter).
637   AD   2025 Dec 1, 4:24pm  

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/vanguard-now-allow-crypto-etfs-211500405.html

(Bloomberg) -- Vanguard Group, the world’s second-largest asset manager, has decided to allow ETFs and mutual funds that primarily hold cryptocurrencies to be traded on its platform, reversing a longstanding position.

Starting on Tuesday, Vanguard will allow ETFs and mutual funds that primarily hold select cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin, Ether, XRP, and Solana, to be eligible for trading on its platform. It’s a compromise that belies the firm’s long-standing view that digital assets are too volatile and speculative for serious portfolios and comes despite a more than $1 trillion drawdown in crypto market value since early October.
639   REpro   2025 Dec 1, 6:13pm  

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58678907
https://www.msn.com/en-us/technology/cryptocurrencies/china-bans-all-crypto-what-it-really-means-for-the-global-market/ar-AA1Gw1f4

The People’s Bank of China (PBoC) reaffirmed the total prohibition on crypto trading in late 2025, coordinating with 13 government agencies to crack down on illegal digital currency activities

For them trading cryptocurrency was devaluated to the level of trading baseball cards.
640   AD   2025 Dec 1, 6:30pm  

REpro says

The People’s Bank of China (PBoC) reaffirmed the total prohibition on crypto trading


Its a threat to the Chicom's interests. They rather have Chicom subjects (i.e. Chinese nationals) invest in high rise apartments.

Also the Chicoms think crypto will help strengthen the dollar such as with stable coin and Bitcoin Reserve owned by the US Treasury, and they believe having large gold reserves will help to reduce the dollar as a reserve currency.
641   AD   2025 Dec 2, 12:12pm  

Opinion: For these big players, investing in bitcoin is all about power
Governments increasingly are using cryptocurrency to gain geopolitical clout and decouple from the dollar

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-still-has-one-thing-going-for-it-that-investors-are-missing-d2988d9b

....................................................................

Quick Summary:
The MarketWatch article argues that despite volatility and skepticism, Bitcoin’s enduring advantage lies in its scarcity and fixed supply. This unique characteristic continues to differentiate it from other assets and remains underappreciated by many investors.

Key Points from the Article
• Scarcity as Core Value
• Bitcoin’s supply is capped at 21 million coins, making it fundamentally different from fiat currencies that can be printed in unlimited amounts.
• This scarcity is what gives Bitcoin its long-term appeal, especially in times of inflation or monetary expansion.
• Investor Blind Spot
• Many investors focus on short-term price swings, regulatory uncertainty, or competition from other cryptocurrencies.
• The article emphasizes that these concerns often overshadow Bitcoin’s most important feature: its fixed supply.
• Comparison to Other Assets
• Unlike gold, which can still be mined, or fiat currencies, which can be expanded, Bitcoin’s supply is mathematically predetermined.
• This makes it a unique hedge against inflation and monetary policy shifts.
• Market Sentiment
• Current investor sentiment may be cautious due to volatility and macroeconomic factors.
• However, the article suggests that long-term holders recognize Bitcoin’s scarcity as its enduring strength.
• Broader Implications
• Bitcoin’s scarcity could play a larger role in institutional adoption as investors seek assets with predictable supply dynamics.
• The piece implies that this overlooked factor may drive future demand, even if short-term trading remains turbulent.

Why It Matters for You
Given your interest in institutional finance and Bitcoin ETF analysis, this article reinforces the narrative that scarcity—not just price action—is the key driver of Bitcoin’s long-term value. For your Gulf Coast community, where inflation and economic resilience are pressing concerns, highlighting Bitcoin’s fixed supply could help frame discussions about its role as a hedge or alternative store of value.
642   AD   2025 Dec 3, 12:31pm  



643   AD   2025 Dec 4, 12:10pm  

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/04/podcasts/larry-fink-and-brian-armstrong-are-not-worried-about-another-crypto-winter.html

Here’s a concise 4‑bullet summary of the New York Times podcast article featuring Larry Fink (BlackRock) and Brian Armstrong (Coinbase):

• Larry Fink and Brian Armstrong both expressed confidence in crypto’s resilience, arguing that institutional adoption and regulatory clarity are making another “crypto winter” unlikely.
• Fink highlighted BlackRock’s Bitcoin ETF success, noting strong investor demand and positioning crypto as a legitimate asset class alongside traditional investments.
• Armstrong emphasized Coinbase’s role in mainstreaming crypto, pointing to growing retail participation and the integration of blockchain into financial infrastructure.
• Both leaders framed crypto as entering a new maturity phase, where volatility remains but long‑term growth is supported by broader acceptance and global financial integration

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