patrick.net

Maga_Chaos_Monkey says

DeficitHawk says
If you cant acknowledge that due process is warranted for people you dont like as well as people you like

I think people here do - for Americans. It's not like we're killing them, just sending them back.

Bingo. You're not a citizen. What do other countries do? Let us know Deficit which country allows you to stay there indefinitely or for many years illegally. I'll wait. This is the point.

Why do we have to give someone here illegally due process? He didn't follow the damn process.... Until you answer that it's hard to have a conversation on the topic. It's law. He didn't follow the process.

If I didn't follow gun laws and shot someone on my property, what happens? I don't get due process. I go to jail for having an illegal firearm. This isn't all that complicated. You follow law or you get booted or go to jail. Not much to it.

Maga_Chaos_Monkey says

DeficitHawk says

If you cant acknowledge that due process is warranted for people you dont like as well as people you like

I think people here do - for Americans. It's not like we're killing them, just sending them back.

Agreed. Although this is exactly what is heavily contested by liberals. There is a case that habeas corpus etc. remains intact as even for non-citizens, even enemy combatants, as ruled by SCOTUS. This is not as clear cut as it may seem to either side. However habeas corpus can be voided in case of an "invasion or rebellion" when public safety requires it. Given how many illegals have been pouring over the border every year, esp. during the xiden administration, invasion is a totally plausible scenario here and allows for deportations without due process. The border crisis has been setting for an invasion for many years now, like some European countries have been facing similar issues.

mell says

Although this is exactly what is heavily contested by liberals

Yes, it is what is contested.

I don't know about other countries. I know what USA does, what the courts have ruled on the topic, and I know what I PERSONALLY think should be the case as my opinion.

USA has long had due process for non-citizens, and I want it to stay that way. The courts have ruled this way, supreme court justices have explicitly said it. I referenced the cases above, not that anyone here would bother to read them.

I do understand the people who are in the process of arriving, or at the border are NOT granted due process, they may be turned away and not granted entry without process and that's fine with me too. There will naturally be a fuzzy line between the category of 'arriving' vs 'already here'.... and the courts will have to maintain that line in some way.

You may ask "Why does this stupid lefty think non-citizens should get due process?"... To me its simple, I dont trust the government sometimes. I dont want government to start using its power to 'disappear' political enemies.

If we normalize the procedure of deporting and irretrievably incarcerating people abroad without due process, there seems little to stop an administration I don't trust from 'disappearing' their enemies (citizens and all) and then saying "oops, our bad, well nothing can be done about it now".

I want due process so that when they come for me, at least there is a judge who will hear my case instead of direct shipment to the gulag with no hearing.

You may also ask: "What does this stupid lefty think is reasonable due process for immigration cases?"... To me, its pretty simple. A fact check on citizenship and immigration status in the presence of a judge, where a person has the opportunity to say to a judge "Hey, IM actually a citizen" or "Hey, I actually have legal immigration status". The judge reviews those facts and if the person does not have citizenship or legal immigration status, they rule with a deportation order.

One of the things the judges should watch out for is whether people are being selectively targeted for enforcement due to "something they said that the administration didn't like". That would violate our 1st amendment, even if it is an illegal immigrant.

DeficitHawk says

I want due process so that when they come for me, at least there is a judge who will hear my case instead of direct shipment to the gulag with no hearing.

Yeah but that's hyperbole though. They aren't shipped to Gulags, not even imprisoned (temporarily held), they are just sent home. If the border was secure and agent could keep it tight by almost any means necessary, then the few remaining illegals could get their due process and time to hear their cases. Not during and invasion though. This has been the tactic of the left for a while now, not just in the US, to flood the country with illegals and make everyone depend on them to secure future elections by any means necessary. People had enough and as long as this is an emergency, emergency powers will hold.

DeficitHawk says

everyone here is so extreme right.

Being anti-woke, anti-DEI, and keeping our own money is 'so extreme right'.

mell says

They aren't shipped to Gulags, not even imprisoned (temporarily held), they are just sent home

This guy was imprisoned. The people he was deported with were imprisoned. They are in a prison in El Salvador.

Its not hyperbole. It happened, in this very case that we are discussing here. "Maryland man"

DeficitHawk says

This guy was imprisoned.

By El Salvador, not us. Just because ES no longer fucks around with THEIR criminals anymore doesn't translate into the US government imprisoning them.

Reality can be such a bitch, sometimes.

MolotovCocktail says

Being anti-woke, anti-DEI, and keeping our own money is 'so extreme right'.

Im anti woke and anti dei.

As for keeping your own money... well, my user name is deficit hawk.... I think we need to balance our taxes against our expenditures to be fiscally responsible.. so we cant keep all of our own money without running up the deficit, which I oppose.

DeficitHawk says

The topic of concern here is whether this person should get due process before being deported/incarcerated.

Mr Hawk,

Do you believe that the "Maryland Man" did not receive due process?

It is my understanding that a court had already determined that he was an illegal alien.

yawaraf says

Do you believe that the "Maryland Man" did not receive due process?

I think he did not receive due process. As I understand, he was rounded up and deported without a deportation order from a judge.

I just want people to get a chance to stand in front of a judge and get a judges order before the administration carries out a deportation/incarceration. And the administration should follow the judges order.

MolotovCocktail says

By El Salvador, not us. Just because ES no longer fucks around with THEIR criminals anymore doesn't translate into the US government imprisoning them.

Oh come on. This is a BS argument. WE are in a contract with el salvador where we pay them to incarcerate the people we bring them. Are you seriously going to act like the us administration didnt want the people we brought them incarcerated and intentionally arrange for that outcome?

DeficitHawk says

I think he did not receive due process. As I understand, he was rounded up and deported without a deportation order from a judge.

I share your concern about a powerful federal government that could arrest and deport anyone without judicial review.

In this particular case I understand the courts already determined him to be an illegal alien. In your opinion, what else would have been necessary for his deportation to be legal?

DeficitHawk says

MolotovCocktail says

By El Salvador, not us. Just because ES no longer fucks around with THEIR criminals anymore doesn't translate into the US government imprisoning them.

Oh come on. This is a BS argument. WE are in a contract with el salvador where we pay them to incarcerate the people we bring them. Are you seriously going to act like the us administration didnt want the people we brought them incarcerated and intentionally arrange for that outcome?

That's not true. The US may treat countries (monetarily) better who take their own citizens back as they should, but they can do with their citizens whatever they want as long as they don't ship em back. Not a US or constitutional problem at all.

DeficitHawk says

The topic of concern here is whether this person should get due process before being deported/incarcerated.

He got the process he was due.

Glad to see you're still around.

Do you really think a gang affiliated illegal alien should be allowed to stay in the USA?

DeficitHawk says

I want due process so that when they come for me, at least there is a judge who will hear my case instead of direct shipment to the gulag with no hearing.

Me too.
I found it abhorrent when peaceful J6 protesters were incarcerated without due process just after a summer of violent riots where vandals who destroyed personal and government property were not even arrested.

DeficitHawk says

they rule with a deportation order.

Maryland man had a deportation order.

Otherwise he would not have been deported.

Onvacation says

DeficitHawk says

I want due process so that when they come for me, at least there is a judge who will hear my case instead of direct shipment to the gulag with no hearing.

Me too.
I found it abhorrent when peaceful J6 protesters were incarcerated without due process just after a summer of violent riots where vandals who destroyed personal and government property were not even arrested.

This was my initial response as well. If you're so concerned about due process, where is the outrage for the hundreds of FBI entrapped J6 victims Crocodile tears for woman beating drug messicans, but no sympathy for your own countrymen, and no concern for how Ashley Babbit was murdered by being shot in the back. Your selective and specious arguments have no credibility with me.

yawaraf says

DeficitHawk says

I think he did not receive due process. As I understand, he was rounded up and deported without a deportation order from a judge.

I share your concern about a powerful federal government that could arrest and deport anyone without judicial review.

In this particular case I understand the courts already determined him to be an illegal alien. In your opinion, what else would have been necessary for his deportation to be legal?

A court order to deport.

Onvacation says

Maryland man had a deportation order.

No, he didnt.

stereotomy says

where is the outrage for the hundreds of FBI entrapped J6 victims

Ah of course. Here is the whataboutism.

So, lets say there was a breakdown of due process in some prior case that you care deeply about. In your mind, does that mean that we should advocate to keep depriving more people of due process out of vengeance? Or does it mean we should correct the problems that failed to deliver due process?

There are many people working their way through the criminal justice system for all sorts of crimes. I can only imagine that our system is not perfect. some people probably wait too long for trial, and that goes against our right to a speedy trial. I don't contest that it has and probably will happen again. But I would not use that as a justification to do it intentionally!

These problems should be corrected. Not celebrated. It seems like you want to point to some past case where you think there was not due process, and turn that into a reason why we should intentionally deprive someone else!

If you were robbed, does it give you the right to rob others? Is that justice? I just don't understand the logic of these whataboutisms.

If you are after vengeance for your perceived slights, and will abandon our constitution to get it, that's a position I cant sympathize with.

DeficitHawk says

I just want people to get a chance to stand in front of a judge and get a judges order before the administration carries out a deportation/incarceration.

Why? It's not hard to provide a birth certificate. Everyone gets one or can call the hospital and get a duplicate. That was his due process. Or have records of gaining citizenship. He clearly had neither. The left needs to move on from this. Digging a hole with no ladder is what you're doing.

You don't get due process if you're not a legal citizen. He went to court and could not prove citizenship. Was in a violent gang. Even if wrong he's got to go. Sorry. Don't do illegal shit like beat a woman. I'd send ass holes like that who are US citizens to El Salvador without due process. Fuck 'em.

Whattabout murder?
Whattabout violations of Habeas corpus not seen since the 1860's?

Is that the only defense? - "I don't care or acknowledge this because it doesn't futher my narrative?"

Yes complain you're being dismissed while dismissing all contrary views.

Pfft.

WookieMan says

It's not hard to provide a birth certificate.

Its not hard, i agree. The point is I dont want the arresting officer, or whomever is in charge of enforcement of the law to ALSO be the decider of guilt and the decider of the sentence. That should be done by a judge. That is the due process that SHOULD have happened.

None of this is hard at all. Go to the judge, make the case, get a decision, follow the decision. Not hard.

WookieMan says

You don't get due process if you're not a legal citizen

You keep saying this, but you are wrong. What you are saying is untrue. Ive cited the supreme court decisions, and quoted the relevant text from them. Dont read them if you dont want to... but it wont change the fact.

Due process IS afforded to non citizens, even if illegal. Only exceptions are around people in the process of entry, "Arriving" immigrants can be turned away without due process.

This individual had been here many years. He was not "arriving"... he was "already here". He IS entitled due process, and the supreme court has ruled so in many cases!

Please stop repeating a falsehood!!

stereotomy says

Whattabout murder?

This is a thread called "Maryland man".

I really can not keep up with 100 random people's whattaboutisms on the various topics they each individually care about. If you want to discuss with me here, discuss the topic at hand.

If you want to discuss a different topic, go make a thread about it.

DeficitHawk says

This individual had been here many years. He was not "arriving"... he was "already here". He IS entitled due process, and the supreme court has ruled so in many cases!

He had been in front of judges before. Not sure your point. Gang member, spouse beater and probably more. I don't want him here. Do you? He wasn't here legally. I don't care what some lower court judge said. If I go to France and get caught punching a woman, what do you think is going to happen if I'm not a citizen? Goodbye. That's how every country does it.

Question. Honest answer please. You think this guy was good for American society? He wasn't a citizen. Move on from it dude.

DeficitHawk says

I really can not keep up with 100 random people's whattaboutisms on the various topics they each individually care about.

Boo hoo - I whattabout people who start the whole whattabout shit. Don't like the shoe on the other foot? How quaint and entirely predictable of you.

DeficitHawk says

Oh come on. This is a BS argument. WE are in a contract with el salvador where we pay them to incarcerate the people we bring them. Are you seriously going to act like the us administration didnt want the people we brought them incarcerated and intentionally arrange for that outcome?

Who cares? It all falls under FOREIGN POLICY - which no judge has any authority on, period.

.

DeficitHawk says

Due process IS afforded to non citizens,

Deportation is an administrative procedure, not a criminal one. The level of due process deportees get is a lot less as a result.

DeficitHawk says

Im anti woke and anti dei.

As for keeping your own money... well, my user name is deficit hawk.... I think we need to balance our taxes against our expenditures to be fiscally responsible.. so we cant keep all of our own money without running up the deficit, which I oppose.

Sure you are.

Unfortunately, DeficitHawk is correct on the current due process rules. Unless an illegal was issued an Expedited Removal Order by Customs and Border Protection officers at the border, airports and other ports of entry while trying to enter the US without the proper documentation or who lied or used fraudulent documents when trying to enter the US, the illegal has to go before a judge. The left pushes this not because of any love for due process or fear of loss of civil liberties, they love it because it provides an effective bottleneck on removing the millions of illegals that Biden allowed to cross and even illegally flew in. Putting these millions or illegals before a judge means that most will die of old age before any court date. Even those relative few who will hit a court date and get a deportation order can delay through appeals. Biden's handlers effectively sold out the country by flooding us with unvetted millions in order build a Dem vote base. These illegals were not even required to get the vaxx as was required by anyone entering the country legally.

The best thing Trump can do is seal the border. Next is encourage the illegals to self deport. Start by removing any public assistance whatsoever to illegals. No driver's licenses or permits of any kind. Then a serious fine for anyone hiring an illegal. Also need voter ID and laws against non-citizens voting. Increase the number of immigrations judges and expedite the deportation orders, starting with illegals who commit further crimes after entering the country.

We on Patrick.net call them illegals because that is what they are. However, in legalese the majority are in the country legally by claiming that they are seeking asylum. The illegals have been thoroughly coached by the Biden administration, NGOs and church groups.

They have been embedded into systems that are paid for by the taxpayers. Those that wanna work do, while also getting the benefits of a 1st world nation.

Most vacation back to the countries they are supposedly persecuted in.

The whole situation is a complete farce and a massive fraud upon the US citizens.

I support Trump in his endeavors to rectify this FRAUD.

HeadSet says

Unfortunately, DeficitHawk is correct on the current due process rules. Unless an illegal was issued an Expedited Removal Order by Customs and Border Protection officers at the border, airports and other ports of entry while trying to enter the US without the proper documentation or who lied or used fraudulent documents when trying to enter the US, the illegal has to go before a judge.

Then explain how tens of millions of illegals were deported by Clinton, Bush and Obama.

Misc says

They have been embedded into systems that are paid for by the taxpayers. Those that wanna work do, while also getting the benefits of a 1st world nation.

Most vacation back to the countries they are supposedly persecuted in.

Bingo. I pay for it. I'm sure most here do as well I think. Nothing about race or anything. When a US citizen has to get notarized documents to bring a family member in and out of the country that has a different skin color than me, illegals can get fucked. I don't get due process.

We get accused of trafficking my nephew domestically and internationally. It's a pain in the ass since my SIL is a dip shit. We have to drive an hour round trip to get notarized documents because she can't drive and mail it. We need the address of the hotel and the dates. So I have to draft a document anytime we travel with him. Where the hell is my due process and why the profiling of a white family with a black kid. Get fucked.

You're here illegally. Get the fuck out. I was handed a situation I didn't want but would do it for any of my nephews or nieces. I don't beat my wife. I'm sorry, but you won't get any sympathy about due process from me. Kick their asses out. If they made an accident, file forms and do what you have to and get back to the US. Prove you're a legal citizen. If you can't goodbye.

Misc says

However, in legalese the majority are in the country legally by claiming that they are seeking asylum

Many are.

Asylum is not a constitutional right. Its a law that was passed by congress because people wanted it that way. YOU may not like that we have asylum laws, but we do have them.

IF congress wants to change the laws, they can change it. But as long as the laws are what they are, we should follow them.

Do you think the administration should not follow laws it does not like?

Edit: Actually I should correct myself... Congress can change the asylum laws, but asylum is part of the UN conventions that we are signatories of... so whatever they change the laws to would still need to comply with UN conventions. Of course we can withdraw from the UN conventions if we want to. (I dont want to.)

WookieMan says

Honest answer please. You think this guy was good for American society? He wasn't a citizen. Move on from it dude.

I want immigration standards that exclude immigrants who have committed crimes either in our country or their home country. It is our right to do so and I agree with it.

And I think we should follow the laws we have, and follow due process to enforce them.

DeficitHawk says

Do you think the administration should not follow laws it does not like?

We have long passed from being a nation of laws. There has been a huge fraud committed against the people of the US. Most of these Millions upon millions of asylum requests are bogus. The court dates to finalize the seekers status are literally 10 years into the future. The previous administration did that knowingly and wittingly. The only way to keep this nation from turning into a shithole country like the illegals came from is to persecute them. Better the ones that are here illegally and for bogus reasons than subjecting the citizens of the US to the shit the migrants bring with them. If it takes putting a few 100k of them into a prison in El Salvador to get the rest to self-deport and for others not to come. I am for it.

@Patrick this thread disappeared from my list view after I pushed some key combo while viewing/commenting on it. I can still interact if I find a link/comment to this thread but am curious how it vanished from the Thread overview (main view).

Good argument by constitutional scholar for an invasion, hence habeas corpus is not applicable here: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/squatter-syndrome-how-inefficiencies-our-legal-system-are-making-mockery-our-immigration