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It’s a great community. People share their experiences of owning different EV brands. No reason to be a hater if people don’t buy a Tesla.

Bribed To Buy
By Eric Peters

Eric Peters Autos

February 22, 2024

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Here’s an obvious thing that never seems to occur to EV apologists: Why is it necessary to pay people to buy them?

That’s what those “tax credits” you’ve no doubt heard about amount to.

Yes, it’s true that the people who qualify for them are merely getting back some of their own money – that would otherwise have been paid (that is, taken) in taxes. It’s still effectively a bribe. In return for buying something you probably otherwise wouldn’t we will give you back some of the money you otherwise would have had to pay the government.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2024/02/eric-peters/bribed-to-buy/

AND they're fugly.

Eman says

It’s a great community. People share their experiences of owning different EV brands. No reason to be a hater if people don’t buy a Tesla.

I don't think anyone here is an actual hater of Tesla or EV's. I think they're pragmatic and like to keep their money. EV's are overpriced golf carts. Hell we have warm weather here coming up in IL and I just made sure mine was charged.

It's about financial responsibility and what you get out of it. EV's are not cheaper. It takes at least 5 years to pay off the electric gains if there are any at all over gas. Then factor in the price of the car. You're $30-40k deep even with BS governmental incentives. Caron emission aren't doing shit to anything and we all know it. So what's the point? A car that accelerates fast with limited range and long charge times. This is indisputable. Counter anything I just said.

Not calling anyone here a hater. I was referring to the Tesla community on X. Those guys supported the poster even though he bought a Ford Lighting, not a Cybertruck. It’s a great community that shares knowledge and real life experiences for better or for worse.

You keep comparing apples to oranges. A model S buyer is not looking to buy a Camry or a Honda Accord. A model 3 car buyer is not looking to buy a Corolla, but more like a BMW 3 series or a MBZ C300. As SoCal alluded above, his Model Y has the performance of a Porsche Macan, not a Rav 4, or Honda CRV. By your comparison, why would people drop 6 to 7 figures for a car when they could buy a car or 5 figures?

Teslas are not only fun to drive, they’re a toy for the car enthusiasts. Why own 2 cars when one car can offer both? I haven’t met one person who wants to go back to an ICE car after owning a Tesla. This is real life examples. It works for us. We’re happy with our choices annd our Teslas.

Lucid Motors will only build 9,000 EVs in 2024 after once predicting it would ship 90,000.

Lucid Motors plans to build just 9,000 electric vehicles in 2024, only 500 to 1,000 more than it made in 2023, as it struggles with demand for its luxury sedans. If it sticks to that number, that means Lucid will wind up building around 10% of the 90,000 EVs it predicted it could make and sell in 2024 when it went public three years ago.

The chasm between the new figures and those original expectations spotlights how much freedom companies like Lucid had in promoting the reverse mergers that helped so many become publicly listed. And it's a sign of the brutal reality Lucid now faces: that it's still scrambling to find buyers and losing money on every EV it builds.

Lucid announced the 2024 production targets on Wednesday alongside its financial results for last year, where it shared that it lost $2.8 billion in 2023. The modest projection comes a few days after the company slashed the prices of its Air sedan by $8,000.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lucid-motors-only-build-9-220545467.html

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Lucid announced the 2024 production targets on Wednesday alongside its financial results for last year, where it shared that it lost $2.8 billion in 2023.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. EV's are going to get taxed to fuckdom coming up in the next few years. It's a when not an if. They're already more expensive, no one needs them, it's not green by any stretch, doesn't save on "fuel" consumption at all based on the MSRP for similar sized cars, no utility and more.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but EV's are not the future and there's yet to be a pat netter that's told me otherwise. We simply don't have the grid or the infrastructure for cars rolling around tax free. I know this realm. It's not debatable. I know the discussions with government officials. Enjoy it now as I've said. Your fun to drive car won't be worth it when you see what's coming.

Wookie knows. It’s not debatable. Your fun to drive EV car won’t be worth it. Let’s wait till 2025 to find out as predicted by Wookie. No reason to keep beating a dead horse.

Lucid won’t make it. I hope Rivian will, but I doubt it. They’re going to run of cash in a couple years at the current burn rate. Rivian gets good reviews, but they can’t scale. That’s why there’s a high probability they will go out of business. Let see if Jeff Bezos will continue to fund them and keep them around.

Eman says

Wookie knows. It’s not debatable. Your fun to drive EV car won’t be worth it. Let’s wait till 2025 to find out as predicted by Wookie. No reason to keep beating a dead horse.

Jesus dude. An ICE car is massively cheaper than any EV even with subsidies. THE only reasons you bought it was for status and a fun to drive car. You're not saving any money at all. You're $20k+ deep in the hole from the word go. I spend $2k/yr worst case on a V-8 SUV gas wise that can fit an actual family. No Tesla can do that comfortably. Or having to stop more frequently because of the load/weight. A decade to payoff your fun to drive car.

Again, prove me wrong. Elon has mentioned as much. He built a car he wanted to drive. It was never practical. He just got government subsidies because it was electric. Which is substantially worse for the environment. Enjoy it dude, but it's not cheaper and won't be in the near future.

I used to drive a 2015 GMC Yukon XL (Suburban size) V8 5.3L IIRC. My wife used to drive a 2017 Acura MDX. I also used to drive a 1999 F-150 truck too. We know how SUVs drive. There’s no $2k/year max worst case for a V-8 SUV in California. Ask anyone who lives in CA and drives just 15k miles/year.

Of course, you know it all and you know it best even though you don’t live here.

Eman says

Ask anyone who lives in CA and drives just 15k miles/year.

Of course, you know it all and you know it best even though you don’t live here.

15k miles is above average for any cars/drivers. I know gas prices in CA. I've rented many a cars out there. My kid puked in one. I know gas prices are high.

The price gap between a hybrid and full EV is $20k on almost any model. Fine, be conservative, 5-7 years to pay off the MSRP on a new vehicle. You're not saving money. And again, you don't get it. Fine you have free super charging. That will stay the same. Your registration fees and electric rates will go through the roof. Doesn't matter if you charge at a super charger.

Do some work and look up CA MTF funds and EV's. https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/12/gas-tax-revenue-drop-climate/

Here I did it for you. Where the fuck does that money come from? I know what I'm talking about. The money has to come from somewhere so you can drive your electric car on the road. YOU will be paying for it. I don't think anyone here knows who I am beside Patrick knowing my first name. You will 100% be paying more for cars, electric and registration in the next 2 years. I'm not making this up. Doesn't matter state. Don't believe me. Call me out in 2 years.

IMO, unless EVs improve to 10 minutes to fully charge and they can sell a version for under $20k they will never be as popular (that doesn't mean people are forced to purchase them because .gov regulated ICE cars out of the market) as ICE cars. I believe we are getting more and more to a place where people simply are struggling to live. I admit I do not have graphs or proof to share. Only my observations of the people in my circle which includes professionals, family and friends.

GNL says

I admit I do not have graphs or proof to share. Only my observations of the people in my circle which includes professionals, family and friends.

You witness it. More valuable than people justifying an over priced car. We all can argue all day but it is markets. EV's are reaching saturation. Don't save you any money. Cost you even more if you put panels on your house that won't work in 6 years. Buy a hybrid. I've driven everything on the road with rentals and family cars. EV's are NOT the future.

"Green" tech is useful for powering a pool pump. Your entire house if you have a decent one cannot be powered by "green" tech. This has been known for a while. It's supplemental power. You gotta drop $10-20k on a battery pack. It would take a decade to pay that off and then I'd have to replace it.

Markets and tech are built for cycles. There's no reason to have something last more than 5-8 years. You have to sell more. If it doesn't break, you have no sales. Thee are smarter people than any of us. We'd be billionaires if we knew what we were doing.

WookieMan says

Buy a hybrid. I've driven everything on the road with rentals and family cars. EV's are NOT the future.

I agree and decided a while back that my wife's next car is either a used 4-door Lexus sedan or a Toyota Camry hybrid. Probably the same for me and my next car. Every mechanic I've ever spoken to says buy a Lexus. If a Lexus is out of your price range, buy a Toyota. Yes, I know they are the same company but most mechanics I've spoken to say the Lexus is better made mechanically.

The only fun car I would buy is a new corvette or a 60s restomod Camaro.

WookieMan says

Your entire house if you have a decent one cannot be powered by "green" tech.

I have toured several houses around here that use solar panels to go "net zero." That is, they feed more into Dominion Power than they take out and thus have no electric bill. Not "off grid" but no need for a battery. The owners did have efficient appliances (including A/C) and were more conscious about leaving lights on. Some were normal suburban two-story homes, while a couple were built from the ground up to be green. From what I understand, the solar panels last about 20 years with a payback of about 10 years.

GNL says

The only fun car I would buy is a new corvette

I know a guy who agrees with you. He trades in his Corvette every year for a new one, but lives in a modest home in a small Nebraska town. The only 2023 'vette I know that is parked in a carport.



This guy is a retired surgeon who has $millions of Berkshire Hathaway stock but prefers to live in the low-end home he inherited from his parents. His only extravagance is this 'vette hobby.

HeadSet says

I have toured several houses around here that use solar panels to go "net zero."

It's generally a lie unless you saw the bills. We did it with our LEED certified homes. Yes I lied. Most builders and solar installers are absolute liars. Can't recall where you are, but I believe you're in an area that is too far North for solar to be worth it.

It's a scam to use government subsidies to make sales. For $20k you might cut your bill in half AND you still finance regardless if it's zero down. People are dumb. I hope you didn't pull the trigger... We don't have the physical resources for solar and EV's to be the future. And the government will get their money. I know the people that are coming after green tech. We all know carbon emissions are bulls shit metrics. EV's won't save the planet, if anything they're making it worse.

GNL says

WookieMan says

Buy a hybrid. I've driven everything on the road with rentals and family cars. EV's are NOT the future.

I agree and decided a while back that my wife's next car is either a used 4-door Lexus sedan or a Toyota Camry hybrid.

Hybrids are retarded. There is this bumper sticker on a car in my neighborhood that says: "Cool Prius - said No-one"

Hybrids have twice the complexity of ICE and pure EV's. Hybrids still have transmissions, ICE engines, need oil changes as well as the complexity of electric motors and batteries to maintain. Hybrids don't have the thrill and power of a pure EV motor and are basically compliance cars for environmentalists who want to think they are "green" but hate Elon Musk or buying American made cars.

The standard range Tesla meets the driving needs of over 90% of US commuters who can charge in their garage.

The OEM's who are going the Hybrid route are doing it out of necessity since they can't compete with Tesla who wisely invested in battery technology and manufacturing 10 years before everyone else - dramatically bringing the price of batteries down.

At no point has my argument even been addressed. EV's are more expensive and not feasible even if you don't pay the electric. You over paid $20-50k more for a car than you needed do. I have no dick issues and have no intention of driving quick or fast. There's no need. You'll kill someone. And you likely will.

Just own it's status and speed. No different than a Ferrari. I don't get the back and forth about this. When Tesla goes under and no one can service your car enjoy that shit show of fuck. Might be lucky if it is paid off by then... Probably not though.

The only thing that an EV has over a conventional car, is that it has better acceleration. Other than that, they pollute as much if not more, they are more expensive, they have a hard limit on lifetime because the batteries degrade over time, they have limited range, there's limited infrastructure for them, if they are in a minor accident they often have to be totaled because there's no way to know if the battery is damaged or not, a damaged battery can create an uncontrollable fire that cannot be extinguished because it doesn't depend on oxygen for the reaction, and they are more expensive, and finally they cut through guard rails like a knife through butter because of their weight:


original link

But they do have better acceleration.

When I was a kid, I didn't understand the disdain people had for "nerds" that were really interested in science and future technology. Now that I'm an adult engineer, I understand it completely, although I don't think people can explain their disdain, but they have this visceral gut feel that "this isn't good".

If my wife lets me (:>)), I am going to buy a manual transmission sports car. I know the new Corvette Stingray is a beauty to behold, but starting at $80k, I dunno. I was looking into a Camaro SS. Last year to get a new one. Bimmers are nice, Toyota Supra, Acura Integra, etc, can’t argue with them, but would like to buy American. Any ideas?

WookieMan says

At no point has my argument even been addressed. EV's are more expensive and not feasible even if you don't pay the electric

It has been addressed and answered several times. You keep comparing a Tesla to a Toyota Corolla or other entry level sedan.

You need to compare a Tesla at least to a mid- level BMW or base model Porsche for a truly apples to apples comparison. Tesla's are not only cheaper to purchase than comparable BMW's and Porsches, they cost far less to operate in terms of fuel and maintenance.

China stole the tech already. Introducing the new and improved ICE version. LOL

HeadSet says

GNL says

The only fun car I would buy is a new corvette

I know a guy who agrees with you. He trades in his Corvette every year for a new one, but lives in a modest home in a small Nebraska town. The only 2023 'vette I know that is parked in a carport.



This guy is a retired surgeon who has $millions of Berkshire Hathaway stock but prefers to live in the low-end home he inherited from his parents. His only extravagance is this 'vette hobby.

Look at this bad boy. Joe Rogan's car.

About 50% of the EVs sold are in California.

That means that for the other 49 states, on average they have 1% of the EV sales each.

They ain't gonna make it in the rest of the country. You can't market them.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

If my wife lets me (:>)), I am going to buy a manual transmission sports car. I know the new Corvette Stingray is a beauty to behold, but starting at $80k, I dunno. I was looking into a Camaro SS. Last year to get a new one. Bimmers are nice, Toyota Supra, Acura Integra, etc, can’t argue with them, but would like to buy American. Any ideas?

If I were you, I'd get a car like this Camaro. They are every bit as fun to drive, will hold its value and no one else has one.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

Your entire house if you have a decent one cannot be powered by "green" tech.

I have toured several houses around here that use solar panels to go "net zero." That is, they feed more into Dominion Power than they take out and thus have no electric bill. Not "off grid" but no need for a battery. The owners did have efficient appliances (including A/C) and were more conscious about leaving lights on. Some were normal suburban two-story homes, while a couple were built from the ground up to be green. From what I understand, the solar panels last about 20 years with a payback of about 10 years.

The warranty on old solars was 10 years. They’re 25 years warranty now on labor and parts with 92% efficiency at the end of 25 years.

Hircus shared his analysis, and the payback is about 8-9 years so you’re spot on.

WookieMan says

HeadSet says

I have toured several houses around here that use solar panels to go "net zero."

It's generally a lie unless you saw the bills. We did it with our LEED certified homes. Yes I lied. Most builders and solar installers are absolute liars. Can't recall where you are, but I believe you're in an area that is too far North for solar to be worth it.

It's a scam to use government subsidies to make sales. For $20k you might cut your bill in half AND you still finance regardless if it's zero down. People are dumb. I hope you didn't pull the trigger... We don't have the physical resources for solar and EV's to be the future. And the government will get their money. I know the people that are coming after green tech. We all know carbon emissions are bulls shit metrics. EV's won't save the planet, if anything they're making it worse.

Everyone is a liar, be it realtors, builders or solar installers, including Wookie. He admitted it here folks.

People are dumb. Wookie, who is a liar, but he knows it all. 🤦‍♂️

HeadSet says

GNL says

The only fun car I would buy is a new corvette

I know a guy who agrees with you. He trades in his Corvette every year for a new one, but lives in a modest home in a small Nebraska town. The only 2023 'vette I know that is parked in a carport.



This guy is a retired surgeon who has $millions of Berkshire Hathaway stock but prefers to live in the low-end home he inherited from his parents. His only extravagance is this 'vette hobby.

I’ve always wanted a Corvette, but wife said it’s not practical as it’s a 2 seater. Can’t fit the family in it. Then I discovered Tesla, and it was over since. I’m sure the Corvette would likely put a smile on my face if I drove it to “work” everyday. The Tesla does the same job for me since. Money can buy happiness…

WookieMan says

At no point has my argument even been addressed. EV's are more expensive and not feasible even if you don't pay the electric. You over paid $20-50k more for a car than you needed do. I have no dick issues and have no intention of driving quick or fast. There's no need. You'll kill someone. And you likely will.

Just own it's status and speed. No different than a Ferrari. I don't get the back and forth about this. When Tesla goes under and no one can service your car enjoy that shit show of fuck. Might be lucky if it is paid off by then... Probably not though.

$20k-$50k more expensive than what? An equivalent car with an equivalent performance?

It’s true you have no dick in this issue. You have never owned a Tesla to know. People who own Rivian say the same thing. The car put a smile on their face every time they drive it. How much does that worth?

A Ferrari or a Lambo is probably a status. Tesla is no status where we live. They’re everywhere on the road. There are so many Tesla that people buy other inferior EVs for the same money, or god forbid even more money, so they can be “different”.

At this point, it doesn’t look like Tesla will go under. Lucid is highly likely. Rivian is a decent candidate to go under too. I pray they make it though. People love their Rivian. They love it so much that makes me consider buying one for my next EV.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

If my wife lets me (:>)), I am going to buy a manual transmission sports car. I know the new Corvette Stingray is a beauty to behold, but starting at $80k, I dunno. I was looking into a Camaro SS. Last year to get a new one. Bimmers are nice, Toyota Supra, Acura Integra, etc, can’t argue with them, but would like to buy American. Any ideas?

I believe the new Corvette Stingray has a hybrid that can hit 0-60 in 2.4sec. Bimmer is a no go for me. I love both the Supra and Integra. I’ve been trying to convince my BIL to give up his model Y performance to me and buy a Supra or Integra. He’s retiring in a few years so it’s time to live it up. 🤣

Just share a new idea to Patnetters in the hope of saving some people money on their car insurance.



https://x.com/mattwallace1701/status/1761067770563936439?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Eman says

Integra.

I think the Integra is FWD only. A little leary of oversteer if so. RWD or AWD is preferable. I do see quite a lot of tricked out Honda Civics zipping around where I live. I think that is an affordable sports car for the 20 somethings.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Eman says

Integra.

I think the Integra is FWD only. A little leary of oversteer if so. RWD or AWD is preferable. I do see quite a lot of tricked out Honda Civics zipping around where I live. I think that is an affordable sports car for the 20 somethings.

I only wish I could afford a sports car like one of these in my 20’s. My wife (GF then) had a 1991 Acura Legend coup V6. I loved that car.

I installed flowmaster with dual exhausts for my F-150 when I first got it. No more into loud car noises. 😅

If I ever get a sports car, it will be the new model 3 performance. It’s not a sports car per se, but it’s compact and can zip around pretty fast. Tesla offers free test drive. 😂

Eman says

Just share a new idea to Patnetters in the hope of saving some people money on their car insurance.



https://x.com/mattwallace1701/status/1761067770563936439?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

You already know the answer...America is a shit show.

Like Business Insider, Edmunds got caught with bad journalism. MSM knows anything relates to Tesla and/ot Elon will generate tons of clicks. Was it an honest mistake, or was it a click bait? 🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1761043723545153583?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

The opposite of fugly...

GNL says

Eman says

Just share a new idea to Patnetters in the hope of saving some people money on their car insurance.



https://x.com/mattwallace1701/status/1761067770563936439?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

You already know the answer...America is a shit show.

Like I said before, it’s a great community on X. People share what works and what doesn’t. We don’t have an expert, who knows everything, like someone on Patnet.

I thought the Cybertruck was fugly when it was revealed in Nov 2019 too, but some people really love it including celebrities. Cyber is the keyword for why it looks the way it looks IMO. The look has grown on me since, but I haven’t made the decision if I’m going to order one.