patrick.net

The Weakness of the Tea Party is their arrogance toward those who have problem ponzi loans. Like that misguided Rick Santelli, these guys are blaming mainstreet for Wall Street fraud.

Arrogance it may not be, but rather anger from those who have been responsible and bulding a foundation for their families, without asking for government handouts. We certainly saw plenty of people who showed off their arrogance with buying up more home than they could possible afford and being really flashy buying up all sorts of junk from equity they took from their homes. They turn around the tell others how rich they are... I seen lots of this even in Los Gatos.

The Original Bankster says

Leigh, and when all is said and done, you think you have the right to some economic advantage over 90% of the country? I don’t think so, idiot.

You think only 10% of the population gets to take advantage of those deductions and credits?!?!?! You need to get out more.

So what did you think of the news clip I posted earlier today on this thread? Still think the banks are the victims?

thomas.wong1986 says

and being really flashy buying up all sorts of junk from equity they took from their homes.

That really is the unforgivable part, the Smug pricks as they cut you off in the Costco parking lot in the big SUV's,, the scurried into the big box store and bought ten of every thing, while I parked the car. I'd see them out there stuffing the back of their Escalade as I leave empty handed having to go to another store, because these people using money that wasn't there's. Bought up every damn box of Ding Dongs and Ho Ho's they could find.

And how they proudly displayed their 80 inch HDTV box in their drive to prove they are great and everyone else is shit. Flipping that house and moving on to the next one, to fill with more crap from the proceeds. I doubt they ever thought in one damn minute they would ride any of those mortgages through.
They were counting on a flip miracle, til one day they can pay cash for a 3 million dollar mansion from flipping up. These fools couldn't even afford the tax on property like that, let alone the mortgage on the one they were paying now.

They only pulled their heads out of their ass, when the bank called, then they were Victims.

Bullshit, I've been a Victim of their gross Stupidity, my Kids are a Victim of their stupidity, we're still paying for their Stupidity.

Yeah Thomas, those 40 MILLION AMERICANS who took use of food stamps, they are all dead-beats out partying in their Hummers going WHOO HOO and calling you a fool. Or maybe not and maybe this vision of deadbeats living up the high life with a giant plasma screen, and some Moet and some new "rims", all on the subprime dime.... maybe all that is a load of horsehockey whitewash that you use to feel smug and superior.

The tea party was born out of anger - completely expected in times like these. But that anger is being manipulated and fed by moneyed interests and media/blogospere demogogues leading to misinformation, scapegoating and false outrage pointed away from the real problems facing our country.

The message has been dumbed down to the point where contradictory ideals actually are used as a platform eg. "Big government is trying to take away my Medicare". Or their fear of the conspiracy led by the socialist fascists or the fascist socialist.

Its easy in times like these to scapegoat and finger point and the tea party quickly devolved into a herd of sheep shepherded by their prophets Palin and Beck

shultzie says

The tea party was born out of anger - completely expected in times like these. But that anger is being manipulated and fed by moneyed interests and media/blogospere demogogues leading to misinformation, scapegoating and false outrage pointed away from the real problems facing our country.

The message has been dumbed down to the point where contradictory ideals actually are used as a platform eg. “Big government is trying to take away my Medicare”. Or their fear of the conspiracy led by the socialist fascists or the fascist socialist.

Its easy in times like these to scapegoat and finger point and the tea party quickly devolved into a herd of sheep shepherded by their prophets Palin and Beck

Maybe, but Democrats bitching about the Tea Party, or trying to talk a Tea P artier down off the ledge.
Is like Hulk Holgan discussing Woman stuff to preteens. Like Proper douche technique, tampons or pads, birth control or rythm. It's just creepy and not genuinely convincing.

The Tea Party will either be its own Undoing, or not. One thing for sure, the More Democrats bitch whine and moan about them, to Eyes like mine the Sexier the Tea Party looks.

And they are One bad Ass sexy Bitch at this point, just from listening to the rhetoric here.

Tenouncetrout says
Maybe, but Democrats bitching about the Tea Party, or trying to talk a Tea P artier down off the ledge.
Is like Hulk Holgan discussing Woman stuff to preteens. Like Proper douche technique, tampons or pads, birth control or rythm. It’s just creepy and not genuinely convincing.
The Tea Party will either be its own Undoing, or not. One thing for sure, the More Democrats bitch whine and moan about them, to Eyes like mine the Sexier the Tea Party looks.

I can't argue that point - once the midterms elections are over and attention turns to 2012 election, the GOP is going to try to mute the extreme wing (much like Bush used the evangelicals to get elected and then gave them little regard). The question is will they be able to or will they be hamstring from a group they let get too powerful.

Dems would be best to shut up at that point and let them slug it out...but they won't

Hey Trout, liars like NAR were telling them that real estate always goes up or almost always. And that NAR guy David Lereah was on CNBC and it was a ponzi scam. If you are too dense to see this, Trout, then you will always have the banks laughing at you as you divert attention to the poor and middle classes. The big banks did this on purpose. The ponzi was on purpose and was a scam from the top, from the central banks and the international banker cabal.

Again, if you use this to distance yourself from the rest of mainstreet you are like the Tea Party, thick as bricks. Then don't worry, your children will be ripped off down the road by the financial cabal. Way to go.

GaryA says

Hey Trout, liars like NAR were telling them that real estate always goes up or almost always. And that NAR guy David Lereah was on CNBC and it was a ponzi scam. If you are too dense to see this, Trout, then you will always have the banks laughing at you as you divert attention to the poor and middle classes. The big banks did this on purpose. The ponzi was on purpose and was a scam from the top, from the central banks and the international banker cabal.

I have no love for the banking industry, but they collectively lost their shirt on the housing bubble. Not sure how you could think they did that on purpose...

I don't think you understand the mentality of people like Angelo Mozilo, Chuck Prince, Hank Paulson, Bob Nardelli. It's all about HOW MUCH MONEY CAN I SHOVEL OUT OF THE COMPANY SAFE INTO MY POCKETS. They didn't lose their shirts. They made out like bandits for years and will never miss a meal. That they wrecked the economy and some underlings and their companies are now suffering, is not something that bothers them a bit. Sociopaths do not care about their companies, or people other than themselves. Run the con, get out of town when things get hot.

@Vicente--

That I agree with--there were people who made out like bandits. The banking industry as a whole most certainly did not.

The Original Bankster says

Leigh, and when all is said and done, you think you have the right to some economic advantage over 90% of the country? I don’t think so, idiot.

Please be respectful, OB: it's Ms. Idiot to you.

The problem with the TP is that they're angry as hell and they're not going to take it any more - but they dont' know what they're mad about or who they're mad at. They are manipulated by Faux News, author of this "grass roots" movement.

I applaud people who disagree with the status quo - and those people who have a message and a mission are cool. But it's sad when people are manipulated and used as puppets by pundits.

I don't blame the banks completely - people who took out toxic loans in order to finance a lifestyle they couldn't afford shouldn't get a modification. Many people drank the kool aide and are hopelessly upside down on their homes - and feel entitled because they scream out that they are victims. No one forced them to buy, refinance, or spend spend spend. The banks shouldn't have received my money to stay solvent while they throw people out of their homes.

According to her post, Leigh pays a lesser percentage of taxes than I. I don't resent her - in fact, I respect her for being smart enough to legally use the tax codes to her advantage.

Calling other people on this board Bay Aryans and Idiots because you disagree with them is offensive and detracts from whatever message you might have.

Tatu banks did not lose their shirts. They will end up owning most of the real estate that they made money on when they purchased the loans from the originators. Don't be fooled, the TBTF banks are bigger now than ever. Who is telling you that they lost money? I gotta talk to that guy.

Ellie Mae, I no longer have a mortgage thus no longer get that juicy interest on mortgage and property tax deduction. Now I feel like I'm getting taxed to death as a lowly renter. Maybe I'll keep procreating!!! Is there a limit on the kiddo credit...how does a dozen sound?! JK, I'm pleasantly tuckered out w/ these two:O)

GaryA says

Tatu banks did not lose their shirts. They will end up owning most of the real estate that they made money on when they purchased the loans from the originators. Don’t be fooled, the TBTF banks are bigger now than ever. Who is telling you that they lost money? I gotta talk to that guy.

And didn't the big dog banks take that TARP money and invest it in the stock market riding the big recovery wave?!?! They sure as hell didn't use it to help mortgage holders. Sh!!!t, did you see their profits these last two quarters. Sure they are losing money in the mortgage department but that is HEAVILY outweighed by their investments.

Leigh says

GaryA says

Tatu banks did not lose their shirts. They will end up owning most of the real estate that they made money on when they purchased the loans from the originators. Don’t be fooled, the TBTF banks are bigger now than ever. Who is telling you that they lost money? I gotta talk to that guy.

And didn’t the big dog banks take that TARP money and invest it in the stock market riding the big recovery wave?!?! They sure as hell didn’t use it to help mortgage holders. Sh!!!t, did you see their profits these last two quarters. Sure they are losing money in the mortgage department but that is HEAVILY outweighed by their investments.

Yes, Leigh, they took tarp money and leveraged it. They went to the discount window and borrowed at less than 1/2 percent and used that money to buy treasuries, leveraged with debt, at NO RISK, and made even more lending out at high interest. We are talking trillions of dollars if you consider that they also help keep treasury rates artificially low, robbing savers. I want to go to JPM and demand my money in interest back, but they would laugh and get richer.

The only thing that can hurt these banks is major strategic defaults and major default by the PIIGS, causing the European banks to fail and take JPM and Citibank with them. Hmmm, will that happen? Maybe but probably not.

I would respectfully like to make a small correction tatupu70. It is actually the American taxpayer who has gotten royally hosed by the banks via the fed, the treasury, Fannie, and Freddy. We are on the hook for all their givaways and backstops.

Bingo Vincente! This is the scam of the century and these people are indeed sociopaths, but highly educated sociopaths. That's exactly what Harvard business school prides itself on producing. People who can rob without a gun and never do a minute of jail time. I'll believe in justice for all when I see those fuckers in prison.

@deanrite/Gary--
I never said the American taxpayer isn't going to be on the hook for some of these costs. But Gary is 100% wrong in his assertion that the banks made money on this mess. Clearly smaller banks have failed in large numbers and the TBTF banks have had their shareholders diluted significantly from the government loans. They are making money off the discount window, but that is just keeping them from failing. They are still writing off bad loans and will continue to for several quarters if not years.

"When are people going to learn. Democracy doesn't work"
-Homer Simpson-

(PS why is this entire forum topic linked to a url?? non-functioning but still weird)

tatupu70 says

@deanrite/Gary–

I never said the American taxpayer isn’t going to be on the hook for some of these costs. But Gary is 100% wrong in his assertion that the banks made money on this mess. Clearly smaller banks have failed in large numbers and the TBTF banks have had their shareholders diluted significantly from the government loans. They are making money off the discount window, but that is just keeping them from failing. They are still writing off bad loans and will continue to for several quarters if not years.

TARP money given to banks for mortgage fiasco. Banks making big bucks with TARP money. Banks making money on this mess. Why can't you see that?

Where would the banks be without the TARP money? To put it more simply.

So, how are the banks making these record profits if the mortgage mess was so devastating for them?

Remember the chatter about this piece?

So When Will Banks Give Loans?

By JOE NOCERA
Published: October 24, 2008

“Chase recently received $25 billion in federal funding. What effect will that have on the business side and will it change our strategic lending policy?”

It was Oct. 17, just four days after JPMorgan Chase’s chief executive, Jamie Dimon, agreed to take a $25 billion capital injection courtesy of the United States government, when a JPMorgan employee asked that question. It came toward the end of an employee-only conference call that had been largely devoted to meshing certain divisions of JPMorgan with its new acquisition, Washington Mutual.

“Twenty-five billion dollars is obviously going to help the folks who are struggling more than Chase,” he began. “What we do think it will help us do is perhaps be a little bit more active on the acquisition side or opportunistic side for some banks who are still struggling. And I would not assume that we are done on the acquisition side just because of the Washington Mutual and Bear Stearns mergers. I think there are going to be some great opportunities for us to grow in this environment, and I think we have an opportunity to use that $25 billion in that way and obviously depending on whether recession turns into depression or what happens in the future, you know, we have that as a backstop.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/business/25nocera.html?_r=1

Leigh--

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, TARP money was LOANED to banks. Not given. But I agree that US taxpayers will foot some of the bill. My point is that it was far from a free ride for the banks. Many went under and the large ones lost hundreds of millions/billions on this mess.

tatupu70 says

Leigh–
Unless I’m terribly mistaken, TARP money was LOANED to banks. Not given. But I agree that US taxpayers will foot some of the bill. My point is that it was far from a free ride for the banks. Many went under and the large ones lost hundreds of millions/billions on this mess.

ANd the money was never used for what it was intended for, to help the mortgage holder.

I didn't think it was intended to help the mortgage holders--it was intended to keep the financial system from imploding.

Leigh says

When I had my interest on mortgage deduction, property tax deduction, child credit, child care deduction, 401K, health insurance, blah, blah blah I paid a whopping 2% in federal income taxes. And I aint poor.

Ellie Mae, I no longer have a mortgage thus no longer get that juicy interest on mortgage and property tax deduction. Now I feel like I’m getting taxed to death as a lowly renter. Maybe I’ll keep procreating!!! Is there a limit on the kiddo credit…how does a dozen sound?! JK, I’m pleasantly tuckered out w/ these two:O)

I was responding to the OB's comment about you - I took offense at his calling you an idiot. I realize that you can defend yourself - but I was weighing in. He's angry and striking out at you - but it's not appreciated.

tatupu70 says

I didn’t think it was intended to help the mortgage holders–it was intended to keep the financial system from imploding.

But that's how it was sold to the public, at least the second round of bailouts.

I am not a regular here so I don't recall your take on the banks responsibily in this fiasco but did you see tha article about the whistleblowers within the big banks...

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/TheBigMoney/mortgage-meltdown-banks-silenced-whistleblowers/story?id=10600611

Whistleblowers (in every field) walk a fine line. If they do what's right, they lose their job, their income, their reputation and their ability to make a living. If they continue with the status quo, they're complicit.

If I'm ever wealthy beyond belief (fat chance), I'd like to set up a fund to help whistle-blowers while their lives are torn apart doing the right thing.

Leigh--

There were subsequent attempts to help troubled homeowners, but TARP wasn't one of them. I'm pretty sure it was sold as an emergency attempt to stave off financial armageddon. I'm not sure if it was really necessary or not, but there were lots of stories at the time about the whole financial world imploding after Lehman collapsed...

tatupu70 says

Leigh–
Unless I’m terribly mistaken, TARP money was LOANED to banks. Not given. But I agree that US taxpayers will foot some of the bill. My point is that it was far from a free ride for the banks. Many went under and the large ones lost hundreds of millions/billions on this mess.

Bank shareholders lost millions. Bank management pocketed millions with what could at best be called a web of lies and deceit with the complicit help of congress and the regulators. So far none have been sent to jail or had their ill gotten gains taken away yet.

No it isn't tarp that made money for the banks. The banks made money at the discount window. They made money with loans you and I cannot get, and leveraged them to buy treasuries, a certain profit. This is how JPM and GS could have 30 trading days in a row without a loss. Please don't confuse tarp with the real bailouts and the real taxpayer burden.

Also, Tatu, they don't care about the smaller banks. You say the small banks lost money. So what? The international banker cabal is concerned about big banks and about them getting bigger and swallowing smaller banks. It is a consolidation of money and power.

Oh, and I forgot. Yes, the shareholders were thown under the bus but the levered up corporate bank bondholders made a killing and didn't have to take a haircut at all. It was a scam.

GaryA says

Oh, and I forgot. Yes, the shareholders were thown under the bus but the levered up corporate bank bondholders made a killing and didn’t have to take a haircut at all. It was a scam.

I'm just not one to believe in conspiracy theories--call me a skeptic I guess. It seems more likely to me that banks were going after the quick buck and either not worrying about or not understanding the long term risk involved in these loans. It's hard to believe that this was done on purpose... If so, how did it work out for Washington Mutual? Or IndyMac?

I guess I figure the higher uppers of the banks would be rather intelligent people that got taken over by greed. Like I've said many times before, how could you NOT see that this was insane, that this was unsustainable, that housing prices were inflated? Why the hell were banks lending?!

So are you saying that these big bankers don't know how to do their job. Heck, maybe I' should apply, I saw this coming though I never would have guessed how ugly it was gonna get.

GaryA, see my earlier NYTimes link at 7:08am. I think the banks did make money using TARP funds.

Leigh says

I guess I figure the higher uppers of the banks would be rather intelligent people that got taken over by greed. Like I’ve said many times before, how could you NOT see that this was insane, that this was unsustainable, that housing prices were inflated? Why the hell were banks lending?!
So are you saying that these big bankers don’t know how to do their job. Heck, maybe I’ should apply, I saw this coming though I never would have guessed how ugly it was gonna get.

Good questions. They should have seen it coming... I think you probably could have done a better job than the clowns that were running things.

Tatu, you have an organization of investment banks, who were able to sell securities in the form of CDO's that were rated AAA by scam organizations at the mercy of the investment banks that thought of the securitizations scam in the first place. You had the Fed looking the other way while ahomeless guy in Florida went to the signing for 4 no money down products, and you don't think it was a conspiracy? You had shadow banks that were lent money by the big banks, on a wholesale level to make these loans and originate absolute crap, with the Fed looking the other way the whole time.

I must remind you Tatu, that off balance sheet banking was permitted in 1997 at Basel 2. The groundwork was set for easy money loans throughout the western world. Easy down and the allowance of 40 percent of income was used in Europe. In the US and Canada there were no money down loans.

I suggest to you that this was a nearly worldwide scam and conspiracy. FDR would have told you that these things don't happen by accident!!

GaryA says

Tatu, you have an organization of investment banks, who were able to sell securities in the form of CDO’s that were rated AAA by scam organizations at the mercy of the investment banks that thought of the securitizations scam in the first place. You had the Fed looking the other way while ahomeless guy in Florida went to the signing for 4 no money down products, and you don’t think it was a conspiracy? You had shadow banks that were lent money by the big banks, on a wholesale level to make these loans and originate absolute crap, with the Fed looking the other way the whole time.
I must remind you Tatu, that off balance sheet banking was permitted in 1997 at Basel 2. The groundwork was set for easy money loans throughout the western world. Easy down and the allowance of 40 percent of income was used in Europe. In the US and Canada there were no money down loans.
I suggest to you that this was a nearly worldwide scam and conspiracy. FDR would have told you that these things don’t happen by accident!!

Lack of oversight was a major cause of this mess, but I don't think it was a conspiracy--just poor policy decisions.

I think allen greenspan pretty much summed it up, when he said banking, accounting and most businesses are so complex that the only way to catch cheats is to have someone actively turn people in. Oversight doesn't work because it's so easy to hide and manipulate things if you want. The SEC often doesn't find anything until someone blows the whistle.

It's really poor policy making at these companies, in the end they are the ones who can twist and turn any regulation to read how they want it.

No, no, no. Greenspan tried to fight any oversight of derivatives. He knew exactly what was going on, criminal behavior at the highest levels, including his own. The Fed looked away while tried and true underwriting principles were abandoned. That did not happen by accident. Basel 2 was not by accident.

The double talking BIS stood watch while the central banks allowed off balance sheet banking, a method by which you hide your bad loans. This was a conspiracy to hide and defraud. http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/basel.php This Ellen Brown article is required reading for those attempting to understand the credit crisis. Basel 3 wll raise capital requirements through the roof, just like Basel 1 did to Japan. This is a warning to Americans to fix your balance sheets, including walking away from your debts if you can. http://dontpaycreditcards.com And do not trust the Basel accords, which have the effect of causing bubbles and of profiting off of them.

Did you guys know that Basel 2 not only allowed shadow banking but also low capital requirements. And that AFTER Basel 1 allowed tight capital requirements on Japanese banks. Basel people KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN with low capital requirements and off balance sheet banking. CONSPIRACY.

pkennedy says

I think allen greenspan pretty much summed it up, when he said banking, accounting and most businesses are so complex that the only way to catch cheats is to have someone actively turn people in. Oversight doesn’t work because it’s so easy to hide and manipulate things if you want. The SEC often doesn’t find anything until someone blows the whistle.
It’s really poor policy making at these companies, in the end they are the ones who can twist and turn any regulation to read how they want it.

The SEC activily audits local companies like the ones in SV on a 4 year rotation. The same is true with other industries like banks, health, mfg, and others. If your a public company, especially a big one, you will be audited as sure as the sun raises each morning. I been through 6 myself. Not to mention each company gets audited by an independent accounting firm each year and interim periods prior to the press release. So chances of twisting any regulations is a fruitless one. You will most likely be fired, and your career will be over before you know it and you will never work in this or any town ever. Real Estate is the only place you can go, if you havent gone to jail by then.

Exactly Thomas, it was a conspiracy to allow an absence of underwriting. See my post above yours about the low capital requirements of Basel 2 in 1997 that accompanied the off balance sheet banking. Conspiracy!!! This timeline I put together is simple but exposes the conspiracy: http://bank-abuse.com/BankScamTimeline.html