patrick.net

adarmiento says

True, economic and cultural differences (besides slavery) were major reasons to cause the Civil War.

It is amazing. On this thread alone, we have at least 4-5 people who believe the lies.

If you notice, in the Cap'ns long post, it says nothing about slavery not being the cause of the Civil War. Yes, some southerners were nice to their propery and let them mingle with them as long as they knew their place. And, yes, some Notherners were racist.

I don't recall an underground railroad going from North to South though, so I'll assume that free was preferable to slave. Even with the prejudice in the North.

spydah_hh says

A Civil War is when two or more factions fight for the power of the central government, this clearly wasn't the case

Bullshit, there are civil wars all over the globe right now of groups wanting to break away.

tatupu70 says

I don't recall an underground railroad going from North to South though, so I'll assume that free was preferable to slave. Even with the prejudice in the North.

Don't confuse these people with facts.

bob2356 says

spydah_hh says

A Civil War is when two or more factions fight for the power of the central government, this clearly wasn't the case

Bullshit, there are civil wars all over the globe right now of groups wanting to break away.

And that isn't a civil war. If that is the case then the American War with the British wasn't a revolution but a civil war. It's the same thing with the south vs the north, the south left to form their own government. They were fighting to be free from the union, not to capture it. That is closer in terms of a revolution than a civil war.

So I am calling you out on your BS.

tatupu70 says

If you notice, in the Cap'ns long post, it says nothing about slavery not being the cause of the Civil War. Yes, some southerners were nice to their propery and let them mingle with them as long as they knew their place. And, yes, some Notherners were racist. The South were racist by the sign in the

The point of my "Long" post, was to show you, that the North was and always has been as equally racist as the south. They didn't own slaves for economic reasons. But make no mistake, they treated the blacks like second class citizens, in most cases just as appalling living conditions.

The South were racist by the signs in the Window, the North were racist by the laws on the books.

And this article aligns with I've said all along, that southern red necks are more apt to live, socialize and play along side blacks, than Northern(Or in today's political currency Liberals).

Sorry you sorry Liberal race-baiting racist, you'll have to dig deeper than that.

spydah_hh says

And that isn't a civil war.

spydah_hh says

So I am calling you out on your BS.

All the major online dictionaries disagree with you, as well as my print versions. It's defined as war between factions in the same country. It's not specified for what reason, breaking away or taking control. The American revolution was fought between the country of England and the colonies in America. That is not an example of factions fighting within the same country.

civil war
noun
a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

Full Definition of CIVIL WAR
a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country

civil war
n.
1. A war between factions or regions of the same country.

civil war
noun [C] /ˈsɪv·əl ˈwɔr/
› a war fought between groups of people living in the same country

bob2356 says

The American revolution was fought between the country of England and the colonies in America. That is not an example of factions fighting within the same country.

Funny, the colonies were under English rule but you're willing to declare them the Colonies vs the British a Revolution but, not the Confederacy vs. the Union? Hell by the time the war started the Confederacy already had a constitution, It essentially had declared itself as its own government. The colonies did the same thing with the British, declaring it's independence from the British.

Just to add, so none of your points fall within lie that the North vs the South or Union vs. the Confederates is a civil war because by that time they (the south) were not members of the same country. Just as if the Colonist were not members of the British government.

CaptainShuddup says

And this article aligns with I've said all along, that southern red necks are more apt to live, socialize and play along side blacks, than Northern(Or in today's political currency Liberals).

I was raised in the south and still spend time with family there. What you are saying is total complete unadulterated bullshit. They may not put up signs any more, but things haven't changed that much under the surface. You're from florida, that's just the 6th borough of NYC, not the real south.

spydah_hh says

Funny, the colonies were under English rule but you're willing to declare them the Colonies

There is a website called dictionary.com, check it out if you don't understand what words mean. You hit the nail on the head with "under English rule". Yes that is the definition of a colony. A colony is under the control of another country, not a part of it. You do remember that the revolutionary war was about "no taxation without representation" don't you? Colonies don't have representation in the government of the colonizing country. New Zealand is actually still a colony, the official head of state is still the queen of England. Do you consider New Zealand part of the country of England? Do kiwis send representatives to parliament in London?

You certainly can't claim the southern states were never a part of the country called the United States of America or never had equal representation in the government. The northern states didn't become a country then colonize the southern states. Although some withdrew there were congressman and senators from the confederate states still siting in the congress when the civil war battles started

So yes by all definitions available in the english language the revolutionary war was a revolutionary war and the civil war was a civil war.

CaptainShuddup says

The point of my "Long" post, was to show you, that the North was and always has been as equally racist as the south.

Again--I'll have to disagree. I consider owning slaves to be slightly more racist than NOT owning slaves.

CaptainShuddup says

But make no mistake, they treated the blacks like second class citizens, in most cases just as appalling living conditions.

No, not as appalling. Being a piece of property is much more appalling then living in poor conditions. Let's get serious here.

bob2356 says

I was raised in the south and still spend time with family there. What you are saying is total complete unadulterated bullshit.

Well I'm sorry your family are racists, and you still like to go back and visit them. What can I tell ya. There's racist in Brooklyn as well. Are you going to condemn the whole state of New York?

You guys are going to need a bigger boat.

It's funny watching the GOP-lovers in this thread bend themselves into pretzels excusing the South. There's a reason the Confederate flag is clutched like a teddy bear by Southern Whites, and it's got nothing to do with States Rights.

tatupu70 says

No, not as appalling. Being a piece of property is much more appalling then living in poor conditions. Let's get serious here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha_Race_Riot_of_1919

OK Race baiting bonus round, for the daily double douche.

How come NONE of the top 10 American race riots happened in the good ole Deep South?

http://theblackbottom.com/?p=5210

CaptainShuddup says

There's racist in Brooklyn as well. Are you going to condemn the whole state of New York?

I condemn anyone who is racist. But I don't buy for one second your contention that the pervasive, overt, and institutionalized racism that has declined but not disappeared in the south was somehow the same as or less of a problem as the racism that existed in the north. You're dreaming.

bob2356 says

But I don't buy for one second your contention that the pervasive, overt, and institutionalized racism that has declined but not disappeared in the south was somehow the same as or less of a problem as the racism that existed in the north.

Well fucking of course You DON'T, or your party would be obsolete.

CaptainShuddup says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha_Race_Riot_of_1919

OK Race baiting bonus round, for the daily double douche.

How come NONE of the top 10 American race riots happened in the good ole Deep South?

http://theblackbottom.com/?p=5210

OK--maybe we're speaking different languages. I don't think anyone here is saying that there aren't racist people living in the North.

Is that what you are trying to show?

Vicente says

It's funny watching the GOP-lovers in this thread bend themselves into pretzels excusing the South.

Who's excusing the South, and excusing the South for what?

I love how the race baiters in this thread are pretending that Blacks in the North have always had equal footing. The only historical race problems have been in the South.

bob2356 says

I condemn anyone who is racist. But I don't buy for one second your contention that the pervasive, overt, and institutionalized racism that has declined but not disappeared in the south was somehow the same as or less of a problem as the racism that existed in the north. You're dreaming.

Get back over here, I'm not done with you yet.

Before I can ever take you serious ever again.

I need a modern example of "institutionalized racism" in the South. Otherwise, I'll place you in the same regard of your rhetoric as BGMal and his Zionist rants.

CaptainShuddup says

I love how the race baiters in this thread are pretending that Blacks in the North have always had equal footing. The only historical race problems have been in the South.

Who is claiming that???

The South kept the institution of slavery until they were forced to go to war. That's the point.

tatupu70 says

OK--maybe we're speaking different languages. I don't think anyone here is saying that there aren't racist people living in the North.

Is that what you are trying to show?

No don't lay that trip on me, I'm not the one who started this thread that is the opposite of what you just posted.

I'm just pointing out, that the North, didn't suddenly drop their racist culture, they just took it off the books.

tatupu70 says

The South kept the institution of slavery until they were forced to go to war. That's the point.

Now we're getting somewhere. And how long ago was that?

CaptainShuddup says

I'm just pointing out, that the North, didn't suddenly drop their racist culture, they just took it off the books.

Well, they were for abolishing slavery so I'd say that makes them less racist than folks that were FOR slavery. Wouldn't you?

Actually, maybe I'm assuming too much. Do you think someone who has slaves is more racist than someone who doesn't?

Yes like Obama was better than Mitt Romney and Sarah Painintheass.

Vicente says

White Southerners want to recast it for the same reason Japanese don't want to talk about their history with China. They can't look in that mirror, they know the ugliness they'll have to face and they are chickenshits about it. The cop-out, is to cast themselves as victims of "Northern aggression" so they can play innocent.

+100

There's a reason you have to confess your sins to be forgiven. Acknowledging the wrong is the first and unskippable step to fixing the wrong and moving on. Had the South done this, they would no longer be carrying the guilt of slavery, segregation, and lynching.

Dan8267 says

Had the South done this, they would no longer be carrying the guilt of slavery, segregation, and lynching.

I'll repeat it again...
CaptainShuddup says

How come NONE of the top 10 American race riots happened in the good ole Deep South?

http://theblackbottom.com/?p=5210

Oh and one more thing that is really really really egging me.
You guys claim that there is "institutionalized" racism in the South. When the LA Police department is considered the most racist department in the US, and has been so at least since the O.J. Simpson trial.

You Clowns live closer to Cletus than I do.

CaptainShuddup says

No the North still thinks every Southerner had a Slave and was willing to risk a 5 ounce ball of red hot ballistic lead taking out their gut contents to fertilize the battle grounds, so that rich Southern plantation owners could continue to use cheap slave labor over them them?

No, this is not what people in the North think.

What we think is that the people with political power and authority in South were the ones who had slaves. The common man was too damn poor to own one, and in fact was poor precisely because of slavery.

Slavery cut wages for free workers. This prevented the virtuous cycle of high productivity, high wages, high consumption, high demand. So, in fact, slavery is the prime reason the South is still dirt poor and never built the economy that the North did.

Nonetheless, the common man could have demanded that slavery be outlawed or sided with the North during the Civil War. Instead, they sided with evil. As such, I have no sympathy for them.

CaptainShuddup says

The Civil was was an economic clash between the North and the South. The slaves were as much a part of it, as the North's industrial might

This statement is utter revisionist history. You might as well state that the Holocaust was an economic disagreement between the Nazis and the Jews.

Slavery was not only the prime cause of the Civil War, it was the only cause. Even the state's rights argument was bullshit back then. Some people just use the phrase "state's rights" to try to get their way when they can't get the federal government to side with them. These same people will use the federal government to undermine state's rights when they can. See legalizing marijuana and same-sex marriages. The misnamed Defense of Marriage act is a perfect example of these people giving a big F-U to state's rights today. Before the Civil War, those people had no problem using the federal government to promote slavery when they could.

Furthermore, if slavery and racism wasn't the cause of the Civil War, then why did segregation, lynching, false arrests, voter suppression, and the KKK exist for over 100 years after the war?

The Civil War: It was about slavery, period.

HEY YOU says

The war was about the South getting their ass kicked by a Republican president. They enjoyed it so much they vote Republican over & over today.

And re-enact their epic failure.

Dan8267 says

What we think is that the people with political power and authority in South were the ones who had slaves. The common man was too damn poor to own one, and in fact was poor precisely because of slavery.

Slavery cut wages for free workers. This prevented the virtuous cycle of high productivity, high wages, high consumption, high demand. So, in fact, slavery is the prime reason the South is still dirt poor and never built the economy that the North did.

OK so somebody else said it(made my point) for me, can I go now?

CaptainShuddup says

I love how the race baiters in this thread are pretending that Blacks in the North have always had equal footing. The only historical race problems have been in the South.

No one in the world has ever said that except people like you making Straw Man arguments.

Of course racism existed in the North and it was wrong. The difference is that the North today acknowledges the evil of racism that existed in it and has corrected this behavior and moved on. Sure, there are still racist in the North and it may not be possible to completely kill racism, but they don't decide our policies and they aren't admired.

In contrast, the South has never admitted its guilt over slavery -- which is orders of magnitude more evil and vile than mere racism -- and continues to admire and heroize racism. Just take a look at the us of the Confederate Flag. People in the South lie when they say this is about southern historic pride.

It's not the Confederate Flag that they are waving! It's the Confederate's Navy Flag. And the whole reason the Confederate Navy Flag is waved is because the KKK -- America's most influential terrorist group -- adopted that flag as a symbol that they were continuing the Civil War and the fight to enslave or extinguish all African Americans.

This is the Confederate Navy Jack!





This is the Confederate Flag!

Well, the first of three. See http://www.moc.org/collections-archives/flags-confederacy for details.

CaptainShuddup says

I'll repeat it again...

CaptainShuddup says

How come NONE of the top 10 American race riots happened in the good ole Deep South?

My guess would be that the South was so mother-fucking evil and vicious that the African Americans there were too afraid to riot much in the same way the Jews tended to not riot against the Nazis.

In any case, if you're point is that the South was less evil than the North, you are full of shit. The North certainly did wrong, but the South was several hundred orders of magnitude more evil. Furthermore, the South whitewashes its vileness and revises history with damnable lies. The North does not. And that is the point of this thread.

The South will never be forgiven until it acknowledges its sins and the seriousness of them. Hell, if the South did did after the Civil War and simply stopped their human rights violations, we'd have forgiven them long ago. How long did it take us to forgive the Germans after the Holocaust? Not long because of the Nuremberg Trials.

Admitting guilt and changing your behavior, including removing the evil parts of your culture, is exactly the way to put slavery, segregation, voter suppression, etc. behind you. Pretending the South was not on the side of evil is a doomed strategy.

Captain said, "Oh and one more thing that is really really really egging me.
You guys claim that there is "institutionalized" racism in the South. When the LA Police department is considered the most racist department in the US, and has been so at least since the O.J. Simpson trial."

This is absolutely true. I have a (black) friend who is writing a book about his experiences with the extreme racism of the LA police department since the 70s. Institutional racism is now common, with officers being selected based on ethnicity under the guise that they are a "right fit" for a particular community.
My friend had some interesting things to say about Dorner, the cop who went on a rampage a year ago and wound up being killed by the LAPD in Big Bear. Namely that he wasn't justified in his rampage and that was wrong, but that his complaints of racism and harassment were absolutely legitimate.

Dan8267 says

The difference is that the North today acknowledges the evil of racism that existed in it and has corrected this behavior and moved on.

Oh go fuck your race baiting sympathetic bullshit in the ass.

The North hasn't moved on any more or less than the South has, that is if you buy into this whole "institutionalized" racism. Which the reality is the Liberals are by far the best example, of Institutionalized racism in this country.

They have waged a 5 year long Shit stink campaign highlighting and fear mongering every police report that involved a White person against a black amplifying it, the President chiming in him self. While in the meantime black crime on anyone has shot higher than any other group, mostly because of economic pressures.
Which have been placed on them by Liberals destroying their psyche and constantly berating them and beating them down, keeping them "In their place" as it were. Can't have too many uppity Negro folk, now can we. Only the ones that some educator along the way, preens for public office, or working in the government are ever encouraged. Self starters are discouraged, unless it gives a Liberal politician a photo Opt, and they'll gladly put a government bill, grant or tax break to go along with it.

The rest of you mother fuckers grab a mop, and clean up on isle 4. But chop chop, you can't work more than 3 hours on any given day!

People have seen enough of the Liberal bullshit in the last 5 years, and it's played out. They've been played by the best and it's getting boring.

So what's a Lib to do??

Well let's dig up 150 years ago, and pretend those Northern folks were modern progressive Liberals, and were all about the Civil rights movement, "Yeah that's the ticket", and those mean old nasty Southern racist, are still the same ole scary racist they were 150 years ago. Oh! But not Us! Oh no, no, no, we're on your side.

Now go work your part time job, and hope the GOP don't cut your SNAP payments. Those mean old GOP, they are all slave owning Racists, just like a long long time ago.

I'm also a Southerner and my family has lived in the same general area for over 200 years. Despite what some revisionists want to say, the war was indeed about slavery. Plain and simple, end of story. Secondly, racism exists everywhere, and as seen by the news of a certain loud-mouthed , washed-up 70's rock star out on the campaign trail for such and such Texas politician, its still very much alive and well.

No doubt the South has a notorious past with race relations and some of that is still true today. But the area is changing rapidly not only with the furthering of education but with the influx of people from other parts of the country. When I was in school we were absolutely told that in no way was it ok to be racist or treat others who might not look like us any differently. In my experience its a generational thing: Younger people tend to be more open minded and exposed to different cultures and ideas. So in the South, like elsewhere in the country, as time marches on, the current generation progresses and so too will the generations after them.

CaptainShuddup says

Oh go fuck your race baiting sympathetic bullshit in the ass.

Race Baiting (Conservative Definition) - The act of acknowledging irrefutable historic truths that conservatives would prefer to be forgotten.

CaptainShuddup says

The North hasn't moved on any more or less than the South has

A statement easily disproved by recent voter suppression laws passed in the South. This is precisely why the oversight features in the Civil Rights Voting Act are still needed. Literally within hours of the Supreme Court ruling they were no longer necessary, Southern states enacted laws who sole purpose was to keep blacks from voting. You don't see that kind of shit in the North.

Yes, the North still has problems as I and everyone else readily admits, but the South is still over a hundred years behind the times. Comparing the two is disingenuous for the exact same reason that comparing sexism in the United States to that in Saudi Arabia is disingenuous. Yes, sexism still exists in the U.S., but the women here are getting acid thrown in their faces. The American South is to the North what Saudi Arabia is the the U.S.

There is one glimmer of hope, though. The younger generations in the South are significantly less bigoted than the older ones. We, the liberals, are winning the war on ignorance.

Dan8267 says

SO wait a minute, now the Civil War was about Gay rights?

Where's that picture of Nicolas Cage's face on a fat cat again.
I say it was about that.

That chart is really outdated. Even more progress has been made since 2008.

sbh says

CaptainShuddup says

the Liberals are by far the best example, of Institutionalized racism in this country.

This is the only point you want to make. The whole misdirection about history and war and economics and society (yeah, real big words and concepts for a dunderhead like you) is to set up for a rant about Liberals being racists. It's all you got. It's all the reactionary redneck original racists got anymore: CALL THE LIBERALS WHAT THEY CALL YOU. Just do it over and over.

So true!

What's really ridiculous about the Captain's statement is that racism and liberalism are incompatible by definition. A liberal is someone who believes we are a nation or rights, not privileges, and that we all have the exact same rights. That's the cornerstone of liberalism. It's the exact opposite of the tribalism that drives social conservatism.

CaptainShuddup says

SO wait a minute, now the Civil War was about Gay rights?

Are you really so dumb as to have missed the point of that graph and why I included it?

The graph shows that the younger generations are less bigoted and more liberal than the older generations. Although geography still has a strong influence, the difference due to generation is even stronger as evident by the fact that the youngest generation in the South is more liberal than the oldest generation in the North.

This is a very good thing. It means that the changes in political attitudes are enormous and that eventually the South will be peopled entirely by liberals. We liberals are going to win and its going to happen within the next few generations. Then, and only then, will the South be able to leave its vile history in the past.

And this is what scares the shit out of social conservatives like you.