patrick.net

Strategist says

You have it backwards. The only way to educate all these girls is to first defeat the extremists.

And what's the measurement of "defeating the extremists"? Since when does the War on Terror have an exit strategy or a winning condition?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

You have it backwards. The only way to educate all these girls is to first defeat the extremists.

And what's the measurement of "defeating the extremists"? Since when does the War on Terror have an exit strategy or a winning condition?

My measurement - When they can no longer influence social, economic and political thinking.

Dan8267 says

And what's the measurement of "defeating the extremists"? Since when does the War on Terror have an exit strategy or a winning condition?

When the contractor spend-a-thon runs out. Or, when Cold War 2 begins in the South China (not East Vietnamese) Sea or along the Dneiper instead of the Oder.

Why do we need to support ANY government in the ME? Cash and Carry, I say.

Radical Fundies weren't a fly on the ass of Saddam or Assad before we invaded or destabilized.

The Taliban were glorious freedom fighters against Atheist Totalitarian Commies, supported by who were supported by most of same tribes that today make up the Northern Alliance, before the situation was reversed.

We lost 60,000 to stop Evil Totalitarian Communism from spreading in Asia. Now we subcontract Pantyhose to factories belonging to those very same Evil Totalitarian Communists and their children.

If we outsource all our factories to Asia, they'll become Free and have Democracy.

How can there be anybody who doesn't get it yet: Futzing around elsewhere is a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Jesus Fuck, we sent in the Navy to guard Saddam's tankers while he was gassing the Kurds with Chemical ingredients and know-how we gave him. Then he became Evil!!1!11Eleventy! Hey, anybody have pictures of all those babies taken out of incubators?

Dan8267 says

Fuck dude - have you read ANYTHING that has been going on in Iraq,
Afghanistan or even Nigeria in the last 10 years? You really think we have been
bombing schools instead of spending BILLIONS to build schools and train
teachers?

Seven
children die as US bombs Afghan school

Seven children died when American aircraft bombed a religious school in an
attack against the Taliban in the Afghan province of Paktika, the US army said
yesterday.

Perhaps you should read more yourself before accusing others of not reading
anything.

This is your example from way back in 2007 to make the arbitrary claim that the US is just going around bombing schools for no reason?

From the description of your link, it was a Taliban compound that also had a Madrassa and Mosque in it.

Also from your link: "He claimed that children who survived told American forces they were prevented from leaving and beaten when they tried to do so."

socal2 says

This is your example from way back in 2007 to make the arbitrary claim that the US is just going around bombing schools for no reason?

How about a wedding party bombing not long ago in Yemen?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gregorydjohnsen/wedding-party-drone-strike

On Dec. 12, 2013, a U.S. drone carried out a strike in Yemen. Little of what happened that day is known with any degree of certainty. Most of the facts are adrift somewhere in the shadowy sea of a classified world. Identities shift and change depending on the vantage point, and what appears true thousands of feet up in the air often looks different on the ground. Following two reviews, the U.S. claims it was a clean strike and that all the dead were militants. Yemen disagrees, calling the attack a tragic mistake that killed civilians. Two countries, two conclusions. But one of them paid the families of the dead men a lot of money.

Yemen is a U.S. ally that says it approves every drone strike, but it is also so strapped for cash that the government has implemented numerous austerity measures. Either it handed out the money and guns to cover for its partner, or the U.S. privately paid money to the families of men it publicly describes as al-Qaeda while simultaneously promoting the man responsible for the strike. In truth, only three things are known for certain: Twelve men are dead, $800,000 in cash was delivered, and the dead can’t be both guilty and innocent.

Hmm,wonder which country paid?

Its a multi-level marketing company, sort of like Herbalife or Amway. You behead an infidel, and then sign up five others to do the same.

thunderlips11 says

Radical Fundies weren't a fly on the ass of Saddam or Assad before we invaded or
destabilized.

Really - is that why Assad's father had to literally demolish the entire city of Hama killing tens of thousands of Sunnis in 1982?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_Massacre

Keep in mind the Sunni Jihadis have been trying to hit us since their first attempt on the WTC in 1993. The US really wasn't mucking around in the Middle East other than supporting Israel and not overthrowing Arab dictators so they can keep a lid on the crazy like you are suggesting we do now.

If you believe Bin Laden, he said 9/11 was in response to the US supporting Arab dictators and Saudi Monarchs over the jihadis.

Isn't it better to not support the dictators and not support the jihadis but to support the reasonable middle like the Kurds, FSA and moderate Sunnis and Shias?

Strategist says

My measurement - When they can no longer influence social, economic and political thinking.

It is not "they". A lot of those thugs are from foreign countries, including many western countries. The executioner was speaking in British accent. This is particularly worrisome.

socal2 says

Really - is that why Assad's father had to literally demolish the entire city of Hama killing tens of thousands of Sunnis in 1982?

Yep. That was 30 years ago. What happened since? Hardly anything until the US started spreading unrest and arms to rebels.

If we can go back 30 years, why not 7...
socal2 says

This is your example from way back in 2007 to make the arbitrary claim that the US is just going around bombing schools for no reason?

The democracy claims are laughable - see Egypt and Pakistan. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood - who did not start executing Copts left and right - took power in an election. They were doing a cock-up job and would have lost the next election anyway. Instead the US fully supported a military coup, I think I posted something about Sisi being claimed "Elected" by the Admin yesterday.

The aid is fully flowing.

@Thunderlips - you got 2 examples now? There's alot more than that.

In Afghanistan, even the UN admits that over 75% of all civilian deaths comes from the Taliban while just 16% came from NATO.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/world/asia/10afghanistan.html?_r=0

Tens of thousands of people are alive (and educated) today thanks to US and NATO bombing the Klingons.

socal2 says

In Afghanistan, even the UN admits that over 75% of all civilian deaths comes from the Taliban while just 16% came from NATO.

This is the Israel-Palestinian nonsense, when Israel argues you can't compare a few Israeli deaths by Palestinians to alot of Palestinian deaths by Israelis. So if we applied your metric to Israel-Palestine, the Palestinians are more responsible because they kill fewer civilians.

Besides, what the hell does the Asspit of Asia have to do with me?

thunderlips11 says

Yep. That was 30 years ago. What happened since? Nothing until the US started
spreading unrest and arms to rebels.

If you haven't already, I recommend you read the Pulitzer Prize winning book "The Looming Tower" that documents the rise of Sunni Salafist ideology and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Much of the radicalization occurred in the last 30 years as millions of Arabs were living under murderous dictatorial rule supported by the US and Russia.

America after 9/11 kicked over the old ruling order in the Middle East - and we are now watching itself burn out as old scores are being settled. I think we can still help shape events so the least worst crazy people take over and protect minority groups. But if we sit back and do nothing, the most brutal and violent groups will gain all power like the Russian armed dictators did before it.

thunderlips11 says

Besides, what the hell does the Asspit of Asia have to do with me?

You could have said that on 9/11.

America pretty much left Afghanistan all by itself for over a decade after we helped them kick out the Commies.

How did that work out?

If you really believe that the US is soley responsible for the rise of Al Qaeda (which is ridiculous) - than doesn't America have some responsiblity to keep that monster in check so they are not blowing up buildings and trains all over North America and Europe?

Taliban, FUCK YEAH! Fighting the evil Soviets, these noble savages! Here comes Rambo to help fight Taliban Style on a horse!

Protecting the poor freedom fighting Taliban against Evil Murdering Russians and their Northern Tribe Cronies! Fuck YEAH!

Abramoff helped produce Rambo III, BTW

thunderlips11 says

Taliban, FUCK YEAH! Fighting the evil Soviets, these noble savages!

You do realize that there are several different Afghan tribes and alliances and they are not all "taliban"- right? Or do you think they are all the same "rag-heads" and can't tell them apart?

One of America's main Afghan allies from the 1980's in the Northern Alliance (Massoud) who was both anti-Commie and anti-Talban was killed by Al Qaeda 2 days before the 9/11 attacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

Strategist says

My measurement - When they can no longer influence social, economic and political thinking.

1. That's not a measurement. The term influence is vague.
2. By that standard, the War on Terror can never be won because there is always the possibility that someone with religious views may influence social, economic, and/or political thinking.
3. Since when is influencing thinking terrorism? It's an evil criteria to have that your political, economic, or social rivals might add to a discussion. Hell, by that standard even talking about anything makes one a terrorist.

thunderlips11 says

Here comes Rambo to help fight Taliban Style on a horse!

Rambo fought the police.

socal2 says

This is your example from way back in 2007 to make the arbitrary claim that the US is just going around bombing schools for no reason?

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

http://droneswatch.org/2013/01/20/list-of-children-killed-by-drone-strikes-in-pakistan-and-yemen/

List of children killed by drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen

Compiled from The Bureau of Investigative Journalism reports

PAKISTAN
Name | Age | Gender
Noor Aziz | 8 | male
Abdul Wasit | 17 | male
Noor Syed | 8 | male
Wajid Noor | 9 | male
Syed Wali Shah | 7 | male
Ayeesha | 3 | female
Qari Alamzeb | 14| male
Shoaib | 8 | male
Hayatullah KhaMohammad | 16 | male
Tariq Aziz | 16 | male
Sanaullah Jan | 17 | male
Maezol Khan | 8 | female
Nasir Khan | male
Naeem Khan | male
Naeemullah | male
Mohammad Tahir | 16 | male
Azizul Wahab | 15 | male
Fazal Wahab | 16 | male
Ziauddin | 16 | male
Mohammad Yunus | 16 | male
Fazal Hakim | 19 | male
Ilyas | 13 | male
Sohail | 7 | male
Asadullah | 9 | male
khalilullah | 9 | male
Noor Mohammad | 8 | male
Khalid | 12 | male
Saifullah | 9 | male
Mashooq Jan | 15 | male
Nawab | 17 | male
Sultanat Khan | 16 | male
Ziaur Rahman | 13 | male
Noor Mohammad | 15 | male
Mohammad Yaas Khan | 16 | male
Qari Alamzeb | 14 | male
Ziaur Rahman | 17 | male
Abdullah | 18 | male
Ikramullah Zada | 17 | male
Inayatur Rehman | 16 | male
Shahbuddin | 15 | male
Yahya Khan | 16 |male
Rahatullah |17 | male
Mohammad Salim | 11 | male
Shahjehan | 15 | male
Gul Sher Khan | 15 | male
Bakht Muneer | 14 | male
Numair | 14 | male
Mashooq Khan | 16 | male
Ihsanullah | 16 | male
Luqman | 12 | male
Jannatullah | 13 | male
Ismail | 12 | male
Taseel Khan | 18 | male
Zaheeruddin | 16 | male
Qari Ishaq | 19 | male
Jamshed Khan | 14 | male
Alam Nabi | 11 | male
Qari Abdul Karim | 19 | male
Rahmatullah | 14 | male
Abdus Samad | 17 | male
Siraj | 16 | male
Saeedullah | 17 | male
Abdul Waris | 16 | male
Darvesh | 13 | male
Ameer Said | 15 | male
Shaukat | 14 | male
Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male
Salman | 12 | male
Fazal Wahab | 18 | male
Baacha Rahman | 13 | male
Wali-ur-Rahman | 17 | male
Iftikhar | 17 | male
Inayatullah | 15 | male
Mashooq Khan | 16 | male
Ihsanullah | 16 | male
Luqman | 12 | male
Jannatullah | 13 | male
Ismail | 12 | male
Abdul Waris | 16 | male
Darvesh | 13 | male
Ameer Said | 15 | male
Shaukat | 14 | male
Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male
Adnan | 16 | male
Najibullah | 13 | male
Naeemullah | 17 | male
Hizbullah | 10 | male
Kitab Gul | 12 | male
Wilayat Khan | 11 | male
Zabihullah | 16 | male
Shehzad Gul | 11 | male
Shabir | 15 | male
Qari Sharifullah | 17 | male
Shafiullah | 16 | male
Nimatullah | 14 | male
Shakirullah | 16 | male
Talha | 8 | male

YEMEN
Afrah Ali Mohammed Nasser | 9 | female
Zayda Ali Mohammed Nasser | 7 | female
Hoda Ali Mohammed Nasser | 5 | female
Sheikha Ali Mohammed Nasser | 4 | female
Ibrahim Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 13 | male
Asmaa Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 9 | male
Salma Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 4 | female
Fatima Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 3 | female
Khadije Ali Mokbel Louqye | 1 | female
Hanaa Ali Mokbel Louqye | 6 | female
Mohammed Ali Mokbel Salem Louqye | 4 | male
Jawass Mokbel Salem Louqye | 15 | female
Maryam Hussein Abdullah Awad | 2 | female
Shafiq Hussein Abdullah Awad | 1 | female
Sheikha Nasser Mahdi Ahmad Bouh | 3 | female
Maha Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 12 | male
Soumaya Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 9 | female
Shafika Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 4 | female
Shafiq Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 2 | male
Mabrook Mouqbal Al Qadari | 13 | male
Daolah Nasser 10 years | 10 | female
AbedalGhani Mohammed Mabkhout | 12 | male
Abdel- Rahman Anwar al Awlaki | 16 | male
Abdel-Rahman al-Awlaki | 17 | male
Nasser Salim | 19

U.S. forces killed 8 civilians in Afghanistan, mostly children January 15, 2014

US Military Says Killing Afghan Children Is Fair Game December 04, 2012

U.S. Sergeant Kills 16 Civilians in Afghanistan 9 of them children

Stalking from home to home, a United States Army sergeant methodically killed at least 16 civilians, 9 of them children, in a rural stretch of southern Afghanistan early on Sunday, igniting fears of a new wave of anti-American hostility, Afghan and American officials said.

Residents of three villages in the Panjwai district of Kandahar Province described a terrifying string of attacks in which the soldier, who had walked more than a mile from his base, tried door after door, eventually breaking in to kill within three separate houses. The man gathered 11 bodies, including those of 4 girls younger than 6, and set fire to them, villagers said.

US and UK Troops Accused of Killing Afghan “Children with Potential Hostile Intent”

The US Military Approves Bombing Children

2013 Afghanistan: NATO Air Strike Kills 11 Children

Afghan toddler killed by US troops amid heightened tension over security pactJan 2014

US forces stationed in Afghanistan accidentally gunned down a four-year-old boy, say local officials. The incident prompted a rebuke from President Karzai who is refusing to sign a security pact with the US unless it gives assurances of civilian safety.

Want me to go on? I could do this all day.

The evidence overwhelmingly supports what I have said and contradicts everything you have said.

Strategist says

lostand confused says

A bunch of mad deranged crackpots who want to take the world back to the 10th century??

But I still wonder, if they are a creation of the CIA that went rogue like the Taliban??

You really need to get over "it's all our fault" syndrome.

You need to get over over your simple minded vision of the world. The world does not work that way. They can be savage barbarians and we may have been responsible for their creation.

it is no different than taking a hungry lion froma zoo and turning it free on the streets. Did we do it-yes. But is the lion a savage beast that kills-yes. Two different things.

Not accepting our role, when we had such a hand will doom us to repeat the same over and over.

Dan8267 says

Want me to go on? I could do this all day.

The evidence overwhelmingly supports what I have said and contradicts
everything you have said.

Again - the UN says the Taliban is responsible for 75% of all civilian deaths while NATO is only responsible for 16% of the civilian deaths.

How does linking to random cases of collateral damage (or lone crazies) refute the UN's statistics?

Besides, you said you want the US/NATO to build schools and protect teachers and students. How do you protect schools without bombing the Taliban?

They are the opposite of
Isn'tIsn't

If Bush proved anything it was this: "You can't liberate a population already enslaved to a toxic ideology."
If they weren't Muslims, it would have worked. But they were, and we should have known better than to give self-rule to a people who yearn for genocide, brutality, and misogynism. People like that are children who need strong supervision. Someone firm with zealots, like Saddam Hussein.

lostand confused says

it is no different than taking a hungry lion froma zoo and turning it free on
the streets. Did we do it-yes. But is the lion a savage beast that kills-yes.
Two different things.

You think it is helpful to treat Jihadists as dumb animals (lions) who have no control over their beastly actons?

Aren't we all human beings with basic responsibilities to protect human rights?

And what was our role with Islam since WWII? Near as I can tell, most of our foreign policy was supporting Muslims against gencide in the Balkans (twice), supporting Muslims in Afghanistan against the Commies, and supporting Muslims against the so-called secular Saddam Hussein in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Is the lesson here that it is better to let Muslims face genocide and not them out of their "zoos"?

socal2 says

Again - the UN says the Taliban is responsible for 75% of all civilian deaths while NATO is only responsible for 16% of the civilian deaths.

And that makes targeting civilians right in your mind?

Men commit 85% percent of murders. Therefore we should ignore any murders committed by women. Sorry, I don't follow that logic. Two wrongs don't make a right. One atrocity does not justify another.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

My measurement - When they can no longer influence social, economic and political thinking.

1. That's not a measurement. The term influence is vague.

2. By that standard, the War on Terror can never be won because there is always the possibility that someone with religious views may influence social, economic, and/or political thinking.

3. Since when is influencing thinking terrorism? It's an evil criteria to have that your political, economic, or social rivals might add to a discussion. Hell, by that standard even talking about anything makes one a terrorist.

Your question was just as vague.

Dan8267 says

And what's the measurement of "defeating the extremists"? Since when does the War on Terror have an exit strategy or a winning condition?

Terrorism is like crime...it never completely disappears, but good to keep their numbers down.
We are in the 21st century with people who still think it's the 10th century. We have no choice but to keep those barbarians under control. I still don't understand why we can't make the Saudis and others send their boots to trouble areas. It's their fucking problem, they need to play a bigger role.

Dan8267 says

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

The Taliban is responsible for all deaths.

lostand confused says

You really need to get over "it's all our fault" syndrome.

You need to get over over your simple minded vision of the world. The world does not work that way. They can be savage barbarians and we may have been responsible for their creation.

it is no different than taking a hungry lion froma zoo and turning it free on the streets. Did we do it-yes. But is the lion a savage beast that kills-yes. Two different things.

Not accepting our role, when we had such a hand will doom us to repeat the same over and over.

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians, Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go against their Allah. Never Ever.

Strategist says

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis
left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians,
Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our
fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands
they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go
against their Allah. Never Ever

Who said anything about leaving them alone? I said did we allow them to happen? We supported the Taliban and helped them become powerful. What I would like to know is did we do the same to ISIS? Did we aid them??

What I am saying is, if we pick a side, perhaps enough analysis should be done to make sure they are not deranged madmen-before we throw our weight behind them??

socal2 says

thunderlips11 says

Taliban, FUCK YEAH! Fighting the evil Soviets, these noble savages!

You do realize that there are several different Afghan tribes and alliances and they are not all "taliban"- right? Or do you think they are all the same "rag-heads" and can't tell them apart?

One of America's main Afghan allies from the 1980's in the Northern Alliance (Massoud) who was both anti-Commie and anti-Talban was killed by Al Qaeda 2 days before the 9/11 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

Yep, that's right. The CIA discussed Afghan factionalism in the 80s - and concluded the best bet was to direct most of the aid towards the "Afghan Arabs" via the ISI conveniently over the border in the NW Frontier Province of Pakistan, where the training camps were.

This is from MSNBC 1998:

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar – the MAK – which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

***

The CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan … found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

***

To this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.

“Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,” he said.

ZBig and Bin "Tim Osman" Laden meet, 1979:

http://www.d4lf0RT72iw

ZBig Said:

We know of their deep belief in God, and we are confident their struggle will succeed. That land over there is yours, you’ll go back to it one day because your fight will prevail, and you’ll have your homes and your mosques back again. Because your cause is right and God is on your side.

Front row, from left: Major Gen. Hamid Gul, director general of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Director of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Willian Webster; Deputy Director for Operations Clair George; an ISI colonel; and senior CIA official, Milt Bearden at a Mujahideen training camp in North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan in 1987.

Dan8267 says

Rambo fought the police.

Yeah, they gave him Freedom Tickles at the police station with a hose.

lostand confused says

Strategist says

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis

left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians,

Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our

fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands

they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go

against their Allah. Never Ever

Who said anything about leaving them alone? I said did we allow them to happen? We supported the Taliban and helped them become powerful. What I would like to know is did we do the same to ISIS? Did we aid them??

What I am saying is, if we pick a side, perhaps enough analysis should be done to make sure they are not deranged madmen-before we throw our weight behind them??

No, we did not allow them to happen. They were already there, some dormant, others active.
We need to make sure they remain dormant until we can educate them all, especially the girls.
We just do not have a long term viable strategy when dealing with them. I once more ask...Why can't we get the Saudis and others to do their own police work in the region. Why should it always be us? We are tired of these violent Islamists.
Bill the damn Saudis for the cost.

Strategist says

Bill the damn Saudis for the cost.

Absolutely.

The Saudis are wellspring of the extremists. Every action by Muslim Fundamentalists - in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Pakistan (against Indians), etc. receives enthusiastic support in Saudi Arabia.

15 of 19 Hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi. The "20th Hijacker" was also Saudi. That's 75%. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of extremist Wahabi teaching, indeed the founder of the Sect was a Najd Province Preacher.

95% of Saudi Men 25-41 approved of 9/11 in October 2011
Source: Infowars World Socialist Website Haaretz
New York Times

A classified American intelligence report taken from a Saudi intelligence survey in mid-October of educated Saudis between the ages of 25 and 41 concluded that 95 percent of them supported Mr. bin Laden's cause, according to a senior administration official with access to intelligence reports.

Furthermore:

Prince Nawwaf confirmed the existence of the survey but did not specify the level of support. He attributed the support to what he called feelings of the people against the United States, largely, he said, because of its unflinching support of Israel against the Palestinians.

Although he insisted that Saudi Arabia had no intention of asking the United States to withdraw its military presence from the kingdom, which Mr. bin Laden has long demanded, the prince said Saudi Arabia would not support an American military campaign against Iraq or any other Arab or Muslim country.

Where did the Foreign Fighters in Iraq come from?

* Martyrs in Iraq mostly Saudi, concludes WaPo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401270.html

* US Mess Hall Suicide Bomber in Mosul. Kills 22. Saudi.

The father refused to discuss the suicide bombing, but told the newspaper his son had gone to Iraq to fight the Americans and had died there. The family held a mourning ceremony the paper said. It did not say when the ceremony was held or where in Saudi Arabia the family lived.

* Israeli think tank PRISM estimates that 61% of Arab Fighters killed in Iraq 2004 were Saudi. Compares to less than 10% native Iraqi. For Suicide Bombers, it is also skewed towards Saudi Arabia.
http://www.e-prism.org/images/PRISM_no_1_vol_3_-_Arabs_killed_in_Iraq.pdf

* Iraqi Sunnis funded by Saudi Arabia. US Study Group also concludes big source of Sunni Terror funding is Saudi in Origin.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/07/AR2006120701070.html

* Both the Bush and Obama administrations have directed the US "Justice" Department to hamper the 9/11 Lawsuits against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/senators-saudi-arabia-linked-911/story?id=15827925&page=2

The affidavits are part of a multibillion-dollar lawsuit that has been working its way through the federal courts since 2002. Though the U.S. Justice Department has joined the Saudis in trying to have lawsuits against the Saudis thrown out of court, an appellate court said late last year that foreign nations were not immune to lawsuits under some terrorism claims, meaning parts of the Saudi case may be reheard.

Lawyers for the Saudis have moved to have the affidavits disallowed. They did not immediately respond to a request for comment from ABC News. The Saudi embassy also did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The Saudis have always denied any connection to the 9/11 attacks. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers who crashed planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pennsylvania were Saudi.

According to Sen. Graham, open questions include possible financial support of al Qaeda by Saudi charities, and the role of a Saudi resident of California who was in contact with both the hijackers and Saudi officials. "There was a direct line," wrote Graham, "between at least some of the terrorists who carried out the September 11th attacks and the government of Saudi Arabia, and [a] Saudi government agent living in the United States, Omar al Bayoumi, provided direct assistance to September 11th hijackers Nawaf al Hazmi and Khalid al Mihdhar."

Dan8267 says

Again - the UN says the Taliban is responsible for 75% of all civilian deaths while NATO is only responsible for 16% of the civilian deaths.

And that makes targeting civilians right in your mind?

Who said they are purposefully targeting civilians?

The vast majority of those victims are collateral damage. Still tragic for the victims and their families, but a totally different thing than the Taliban PURPOSEFULLY bombing a crowd of girls trying to get into school. Or sawing off the head of an innocent journalist like they did yesterday. The Taliban and ISIS and Hamas are purposefully targeting civilians.

Are you really incapable of making this moral and legal distinction?

Geesh.

thunderlips11 says

The Saudis are wellspring of the extremists. Every action by Muslim Fundamentalists - in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Pakistan (against Indians), etc. receives enthusiastic support in Saudi Arabia.

I think the rot has gone far past Saudi Arabia or their funding.

The ring leader of the 9/11 attacks (Atta) got radicalized in a mosque in Germany like many Al Qaeda/ISIS leaders.

Apparently twice as many British Muslims have joined ISIS than serve in the British Army.
http://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865

If Saudi Arabia were to disappear tomorrow, there will still be a massive problem with radical Islam facing the next generation or two. It's one thing if primitive 3rd world Arabs are joining ISIS or Al Qaeda because they are eating dirt and have no prospects. But when we have educated and rich Muslims from Western countries leaving prosperity and security to go cut off heads of non Sunni-Muslims and live like cavemen, I think that level of crazy goes way beyond Western comprehension.

Therefore many normally smart people in the West seem to concoct conspiracy theories of find ways to blame it all on America or Russia or the Jooos. It's easier to comprehend I suppose.

Just amazing that we are 13 years after 9/11 with ISIS proudly cutting off people's heads and committing genocide - and the PC mainstream culture, media and academia are still afraid to call out and criticize the dysfunction in radical Islam.

Instead - we try to make it all about us.

Radical Islam has too much damn oil money. If we would drill and produce our own, and get used to ten dollar per gallon gas (just to start with), we could ignore these simple, predictable human stains.

in the meantime, I don't want heads in retaliation. I think it's time we took their nuts instead. How difficult is it to sterilize the population of several thousand square miles?

It is inevitable that at some point the world war 3 will consist of muslims vs everyone else. It will pay dividends to establish and further solidify alliances in latin american and europe for this eventual battle. We need to ensure that islam will end up in the dustbin of history.

socal2 says

The ring leader of the 9/11 attacks (Atta) got radicalized in a mosque in Germany like many Al Qaeda/ISIS leaders.

Yes, but that Mosque was probably funded via Saudi Arabia or another Gulf State.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post.

What this really is about is a war for Islamic Purity, and more specifically, anti-Shi'a and other forms of Sherk (Backsliding from Islam). If it was about hating the West, we'd be experiencing weekly terror attacks inside Europe and the USA.

Or options are Roman Style Population Purge (see Judea circa 70AD or Dacia, I forget which year, but the Dacian treatement is why we call the place Romania today), Nuke from Orbit - only way to be sure, or forget the whole thing. The "Send an Occasional Drone" isn't working and may actually make it worse.

I vote for forget the whole thing.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

The Taliban is responsible for all deaths.

Bullshit. America is responsible when it's drones kills non-combatant children.

socal2 says

Who said they are purposefully targeting civilians?

The articles presented quoted the polices. See the articles.

thunderlips11 says

The "Send an Occasional Drone" isn't working and may actually make it worse.

Yes I think this is something TPTB are not getting. Remember the deck of cards?

http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/iraqi55/

Once we worked our way through that "deck of cards" were we done? No, every "key" terrorist was replaced by someone else. I'd argue we are practicing natural selection and the current ones are smarter and more dangerous.